Are date rape drugs an urban myth?

[Martinus]

Whichever one is on top is the rapist, I guess?

That's why it pays off to be the bottom.

[Barrister]

Maybe Canadian fraternities are different.  In Columbia (where MU is) they give out test strips to detect date rape drugs.  It's been a bit of a problem for the Greeks.

That's the issue. Is it really a problem, or is it a moral panic about a rare occurance?

I checked out wiki, and found this link:

Prevalence of Drugs Used in Cases of Alleged Sexual Assault
M.A. ElSohly1 and S.J. Salamone2,*
+ Author Affiliations

1ElSohly Laboratories, Inc., 5 Industrial Park Drive, Oxford, Mississippi 38655
2Roche Diagnostics, 1080 U.S. Highway 202, Somerville, New Jersey 08876
↵*Author to whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail [email protected].
Received February 4, 1999.
Revision received March 30, 1999.
Abstract

In recent years, there has been an increase in the number of reports in the U.S. of the use of drugs, often in conjunction with alcohol, to commit sexual assault. A study was undertaken to assess the prevalence of drug use in sexual assault cases in which substances are suspected of being involved. Law enforcement agencies, emergency rooms, and rape crisis centers across the U.S. were offered the opportunity to submit urine samples collected from victims of alleged sexual assault, where drug use was suspected, for analysis of alcohol and drugs which may be associated with sexual assault. Each sample was tested by immunoassay for amphetamines, barbiturates, benzodiazepines, cocaine metabolite (benzoylecgonine), cannabinoids, methaqualone, opiates, phencyclidine and propoxyphene. The positive screen results were confirmed by gas chromatography-mass spectroscopy (GC-MS). In addition, each sample was tested for flunitrazepam metabolites and gamma-hydroxybutyrate (GHB) by GC-MS and for ethanol by gas chromatography-flame ionization detection (GC-FID). Over a 26-month period, 1179 samples were collected and analyzed from 49 states, Puerto Rico, and the District of Columbia. The states sending the most samples were California (183), Texas (119), Florida (61), Pennsylvania (61), New York (61), Minnesota (50), Illinois (47), Indiana (44), Michigan (40), Maryland (37), Virginia (32), and Massachusetts (31). Four-hundred sixty eight of the samples were found negative for all the substances tested; 451 were positive for ethanol, 218 for cannabinoids, 97 for benzoylecgonine, 97 for benzodiazepines, 51 for amphetamines, 48 for GHB, 25 for opiates, 17 for propoxyphene, and 12 for barbiturates. There were no samples identified as positive for phencydidine or methaqualone. In addition, 35% of the drug-positive samples contained multiple drugs. This study indicates that, with respect to alleged sexual assault cases, the prevalence of ethanol is very high, followed by cannabinoids, cocaine, benzodiazepines, amphetamines, and GHB. Although only a couple of substances have been implicated with sexual assault, this study has shown that almost 20 different substances have been associated with this crime. This study also raises the concern of illicit and licit drug use in sexual assault cases and suggests the need to test for a range of drugs in these cases. It also highlights the need to test for GHB, which is not generally tested for in a normal toxicology screen.

http://jat.oxfordjournals.org/content/23/3/141

So even in cases of suspected druggings, drugs were found in only a minority of cases.

[Malthus]

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. I think the moral panic about "date rape drugs" is actually doing more harm than good by detracting from the real issue, which is that of consent from inebriated people (mainly women).

You'd have to be pretty inebriated if consent from a woman was a real issue for you. 



But seriously - I agree.

[Barrister]

Yes and no.

The idea that someone is going to slip a drug (like rohypnol or GHB) into a woman's drink in order to facilitate sexual assault is pretty rare.  I think I've seen one file, ever, where that looked like that was happening.

But alcohol is a drug too.  The idea of a man giving alcohol to a woman, or pouring overly-strong drinks, with an ultimate end of forcing sex when she's unable to consent is distressingly common.

Is it true that alcohol is a factor in the majority of violent crimes? I read that somewhere, but it may have been a rhetorical flourish.

Anyway, getting drunk isn't usually what is meant by "date rape drugs" - it's more sneakily putting an unknown-to-the-victim drug in their drink when they aren't looking. I suppose spiking their drink with extra booze would qualify, if unknown to the victim. It is the deliberate deception about being drugged that is key, I think, to how most people understand it - hence the moral panic.

It probably is.

[viper37]

There's no magic BAC level, but if a woman is unable to consent (not just that her reasoning is impaired, but that she is unable to give consent) then yes, having sex with her makes you a rapist.

there's a difference between passed out and drunk.
How are we supposed to know a girl is too drunk to give consent when she's talking and walking?

[MadImmortalMan]

If somebody slipped you a mickey or over-liquored your drink and then used your intoxicated state to convince you to commit a (non-sexual)crime for them, would you be charged for the crime, or would they be charged for rape?

[Barrister]

If somebody slipped you a mickey or over-liquored your drink and then used your intoxicated state to convince you to commit a (non-sexual)crime for them, would you be charged for the crime, or would they be charged for rape?

The rule is against self-induced intoxication.  If someone forces your mouth open and pours liquor down your throat all bets are off - you may well be able to claim a lack of mens rea due to intoxication.

[viper37]

Before I gave up alcohol, I had one experience that really terrified me!

I was relaxing with friends. You know, just doing me.

I think I drank maybe half a bottle of Rum and then at some point in the night I fell asleep. I don't remember anything. And they showed me videos of stuff I don't remember doing.

Only alcohol was involved but given my lack of memory and the insane things I was doing I could see how someone could think they were drugged if they didn't know better.

something similar to that happenned to me 2 times.  I was told it is highly possible it was only alcohol, but I still have my doubts.  I usually recall everything I do when drunk, no total blackouts.  Once, I completely lost track of a huge portion of time and woke up with a black eye the morning after.  Another time, I was fine, drinking a beer, talking with a girl, and suddenly I became all dizzy, everything was spinning around me and I thought I'd be sick.  Had to excuse myself and I had trouble walking home.  Twice at the same bar, in the same time period.  Plus one other similar time when I became drunk very, very, very quickly.

[Barrister]

By the way I feel like I should point out that date rape drugs are not a complete myth - that apparently was Bill Cosby's MO.

But again, in that situation it's not a stranger slipping something in your drink - rather it's a trusted tv personality who those girls had agreed to go into his hotel room with.

[DGuller]

If somebody slipped you a mickey or over-liquored your drink and then used your intoxicated state to convince you to commit a (non-sexual)crime for them, would you be charged for the crime, or would they be charged for rape?

The rule is against self-induced intoxication.  If someone forces your mouth open and pours liquor down your throat all bets are off - you may well be able to claim a lack of mens rea due to intoxication.

What about the other point?  If both are too drunk to consent, which one is the rapist?

[crazy canuck]

There's no magic BAC level, but if a woman is unable to consent (not just that her reasoning is impaired, but that she is unable to give consent) then yes, having sex with her makes you a rapist.

there's a difference between passed out and drunk.
How are we supposed to know a girl is too drunk to give consent when she's talking and walking?

There is a pretty clear line actually.  If you are in any doubt, don't do it.

[Barrister]

There's no magic BAC level, but if a woman is unable to consent (not just that her reasoning is impaired, but that she is unable to give consent) then yes, having sex with her makes you a rapist.

there's a difference between passed out and drunk.
How are we supposed to know a girl is too drunk to give consent when she's talking and walking?

Not wanting to pick on Viper specifically, but there's a very weird societal double standard going on here.

The idea of someone being slipped a date rape drug is horrible, and the girl is a victim.

But when I point out the overwhelming #1 date rape drug is alcohol, all the men get quite defensive and start talking about false rape accusations.



If a girl is walking and talking, you're probably fine.  If you say "Wanna shag" and she says "yes" then she's consented.

If you say "wanna shag" and she just stares off in the distance, then she hasn't consented.

[Malthus]

By the way I feel like I should point out that date rape drugs are not a complete myth - that apparently was Bill Cosby's MO.

But again, in that situation it's not a stranger slipping something in your drink - rather it's a trusted tv personality who those girls had agreed to go into his hotel room with.

Sure, but I think the thesis isn't that it is a complete myth, but rather that there is a "moral panic" based on extensive publicity concerning a relatively trivially rare occurrence. 

[DGuller]

Not wanting to pick on Viper specifically, but there's a very weird societal double standard going on here.

The idea of someone being slipped a date rape drug is horrible, and the girl is a victim.

But when I point out the overwhelming #1 date rape drug is alcohol, all the men get quite defensive and start talking about false rape accusations.

The difference is that in one case, the girl consents to being drugged (after all, you start drinking when you're sober), while in another case, the date rape drug is slipped secretly.

If a girl is walking and talking, you're probably fine.  If you say "Wanna shag" and she says "yes" then she's consented.

If you say "wanna shag" and she just stares off in the distance, then she hasn't consented.

Okay, that's more clear, and reasonable.

[Malthus]

But when I point out the overwhelming #1 date rape drug is alcohol, all the men get quite defensive and start talking about false rape accusations.

It's a problem with the terminology. Drinking is a large part of the culture; using the 'date rape' label for booze may appear on the surface to be pathologizing common partying.

What would make booze a 'date rape drug' is the deliberate spiking of someone's drink with excess booze for the specific purpose of taking advantage of their subsequent inability to consent.