300 years ago today: Poltava

[Solmyr]

- The general idea was that the only way to defeat Russia would be to take Moscow.

That was the fail, Moscow was taken 100 years earlier, during a time of crisis in Russia, and it achieved absolutely shit (in fact all it achieved was unite Russia under a new Czar).

[Faeelin]

Meh. What would a Swedish victory have even accomplished?

[Solmyr]

It's not that I hate Sweden, some of my best... furniture is Swedish, but without Poltava the modern, civilized Sweden we all know and love, the peaceful, neutral country of sexually liberated tall blondes, nudism, Swedish Gymnastics, civilized debate, generous welfare state, Paradox and Ikea, wouldn't have existed.

And the world was definitely a better place while Charles XII had no army to toy with... don't get me wrong, I fully understand Turkey couldn't be expected to house those so-called political refugees indefinitely, but Sweden has good reasons to rue the day Charles returned home. 

Incidentally, it's interesting to compare the comparatively slow Swedish invasion with the 'blitzkrieg style' French rush towards Moscow. I wonder if Napoleon hurried so much precisely because Charles XII didn't and the result was.. well, the result was Poltava!

1809 probably did as much to create modern Sweden. In other words, Sweden owes its existence to its butt being kicked by Russia.

[Cecil]

Irony is the ukrainians probably regard Charles a lot higher today than we ourselves do. To them hes a hero fighting for their liberation against Russian tyrrany while we tend to look at him as a fool who couldnt see where our limits were.

[The Brain]

- The general idea was that the only way to defeat Russia would be to take Moscow.

That was the fail, Moscow was taken 100 years earlier, during a time of crisis in Russia, and it achieved absolutely shit (in fact all it achieved was unite Russia under a new Czar).

A strong yet controversial centralized state is more vulnerable to a loss of center than a civil war one. It seems likely to me that Peter would have felt it necessary to give battle before Moscow. And if he didn't, would his regime survive the loss of Moscow? Nobody can tell for certain. My impression is that it was by far the best chance of ending the war favorably to Sweden and that the chance in absolute terms was reasonable.

[The Brain]

Meh. What would a Swedish victory have even accomplished?

Russian impotence.

[Solmyr]

A strong yet controversial centralized state is more vulnerable to a loss of center than a civil war one. It seems likely to me that Peter would have felt it necessary to give battle before Moscow. And if he didn't, would his regime survive the loss of Moscow? Nobody can tell for certain. My impression is that it was by far the best chance of ending the war favorably to Sweden and that the chance in absolute terms was reasonable.

Considering that St.Petersburg was the capital, yeah. And Russia surivived the loss of Moscow in 1812.

[The Brain]

A strong yet controversial centralized state is more vulnerable to a loss of center than a civil war one. It seems likely to me that Peter would have felt it necessary to give battle before Moscow. And if he didn't, would his regime survive the loss of Moscow? Nobody can tell for certain. My impression is that it was by far the best chance of ending the war favorably to Sweden and that the chance in absolute terms was reasonable.

Considering that St.Petersburg was the capital, yeah. And Russia surivived the loss of Moscow in 1812.

Are you a retard (non-rhetorical)?

[Solmyr]

Are you a retard (non-rhetorical)?

No, that was Charles XII (and all the other retards who thought that simply taking Moscow would make Russia fall).

[The Brain]

Are you a retard (non-rhetorical)?

No, that was Charles XII (and all the other retards who thought that simply taking Moscow would make Russia fall).

I'm glad that you are not a retard.

Russia doesn't have to fall, Peter has to fall. If Peter's regime was essentially the same as Russia itself then taking Moscow probably wouldn't have sufficed. My impression is that it was not and that taking Moscow could have forced Peter to peace or from the throne. Nothing about this was certain, marching on Moscow was a gamble. My impression is that it was not an unreasonable one. And as far as I'm aware it was the only positive measure by which Charles could force peace on Peter.

[Josquius]

Why on Earth is there this image of tall, hot, blondes in Sweden? They're not tall and the majority are brown haired. Average hotness is medium; there's better.

I'd have preferred a stronger Sweden. It would never replace Russia completely thus spreading the balance of power over there and Sweden would be able to modernise far better than Russia did. And of course the baltics would be a much nicer place.

Invading Russia? I give you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih4LxXu78dk&feature=PlayList&p=BAD38D95752B975F&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=64

[Zanza]

Russia would have eventually beaten Sweden anyway. If not in that war, then in another later one. The size advantage is just too big.

[Slargos]

Why on Earth is there this image of tall, hot, blondes in Sweden? They're not tall and the majority are brown haired. Average hotness is medium; there's better.

I'd have preferred a stronger Sweden. It would never replace Russia completely thus spreading the balance of power over there and Sweden would be able to modernise far better than Russia did. And of course the baltics would be a much nicer place.

Invading Russia? I give you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih4LxXu78dk&feature=PlayList&p=BAD38D95752B975F&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=64

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height

Avg male height SWE 181.5cm

Avg male height US 176.3 cm

We are on average taller by a fair margin though if you remove teh untermenschen from the US stats the margin closes, and I bet that the hispanics also drag down the "whites".

It seems the only race of note that are taller than the Swedes are the Dutch. Those fuckers are freakishly tall.

It appears victory goes to "Dinaric Alps" however, whoever the fuck those guys are.

[Slargos]

As for the beauty of our women, these google searches speak for themselves:

Image search for respectively "beautiful woman american" and "beautiful woman swedish".

http://images.google.com/images?hl=sv&safe=off&q=beautiful%20woman%20american&lr=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

http://images.google.com/images?hl=sv&lr=&safe=off&um=1&sa=1&q=beautiful+woman+swedish&btnG=S%C3%B6k+bilder&aq=f&oq=

In order to further strengthen my point:

http://www.travelooce.com/top-cities-most-beautiful-women.shtml

It seems like all women in Stockholm are amazingly beautiful. Swedish women know how to party and enjoy each other, they are extremely educated and friendly.   

[Slargos]

Game.

Set.

Match.