Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[The Minsky Moment]

Obviously, it is difficult in modern Judaism to reconcile the Jewish notion of God with a being that literally has "sons".

The concept of son or sons of God crops up a few times in the OT - it usually refers to a member of the Davidic dynasty and refers to God's sponsorship of and special relationship to the Davidic line (obviously that is not true for the early Genesis reference).  From that comes the idea that the Messiah - who is supposed to be a restored King of the Davidic line - is considered a son of God in this metaphorical sense.  The early Christians took that idea in a different direction.

[Razgovory]

The argument that "wherever Christianity spread, it coopted whatever local festivals that were in place" is propaganda from the reformation.  It's much easy to kill a priest and take his stuff if he's secretly a pagan.  There's not much truth in it.  I don't know of any records from ancient Rome that say "we made Christmas on the winter solstice".  This is possibly because it didn't occur on the winter solstice.  As for Easter, there is no known spring festival called "Easter" or anything like it.  The Anglo-Saxon's had a month named Eostre-month, and it might have had a festival on that month dedicated to the otherwise unknown goddess "Eostre".  We have one source for this: a couple of lines written by an aging monk.  Beyond that is conjecture.

Agreed on Easter and Eostre, who is as I understand it poorly attested. I think seeing Easter as a Christian version of Passover makes a lot more sense. Though it's hard for me not to expect pagan origins for all the bits with the eggs and rabbits and so on.

In Denmark (and the rest of Scandinavia) we celebrate "Jul" - aka Yule - as a Christian holiday. Jul was also - as the Brain says - a pre-Christian holiday. The food, drinking, and visiting culture around to holiday seem largely congruous with the pre-Christian customs. There are a number of rituals (leaving food for the house Nisse/ Tomte to keep him happy, straw goats, pork roast, the association with evergreen plants) that are pretty clearly pagan in origin. Furthermore, since Scandinavia is officially Lutheran, it's hard to give credit to the notion that those associations are somehow anti-Catholic.

Christianity co-opted local pagan traditions seems pretty obviously true in this case.

The protestant reformation is based on the Great Apostacy, the idea that the true church was corrupted by paganism.  Many Christmas traditions were removed during reformation.  Though some were brought back in latter periods.

[grumbler]

All cultural elements are "coopted pagan religious elements"?

Hello, Mr Strawman.  I wondered when you would join the conversation.

Besides virtually all of Judaism and Christianity is full of coopted cultural artifacts from some previous culture, probably even a pagan one if we follow this ridiculous and fallacious line of bullshit. Should we then burn the whole bible as Pagan, Mr. El?

Yes, they are.  Does that infuriate you to the point that you want to "burn the whole bible as Pagan" rather than just accepting the facts as they are?  There's nothing magical about Catholicism from the viewpoint of outsiders that means we have to accept it as something completely original.  Even if its practitioners go berserk at the idea that it's just another idea that evolves to fit its environment.

[Jacob]

The protestant reformation is based on the Great Apostacy, the idea that the true church was corrupted by paganism.

Hmmm... I understood the protestant reformation being based on lay people wanting to interface with bible in their own language rather than have it mediated by the Roman Church; with dissatisfaction with the selling of indulgences and the idea of purgatory; and of course on the desire of secular rulers to take control of Church wealth and exert more influence over the bishops in their realm.

Luther's 95 Theses, which kicked off the reformation, does not mention anything about "the true church" being "corrupted by paganism."

Many Christmas traditions were removed during reformation.  Though some were brought back in latter periods.

Maybe they did, but that does not change the fact that Scandinavian Christians celebrated Jul in ways that were clearly a continuation of how their Pagan ancestors did. This is a clear example of how Christianity co-opted and continued local Pagan customs, which is the point of contention. Whether Lutheran reformers at one point used the existence of those traditions to indict the Catholic church (only for Lutheran Scandinavians to continue with those very same traditions afterwards) does not change the fact that the traditions were co-opted in the first place.

[grumbler]

The protestant reformation is based on the Great Apostacy, the idea that the true church was corrupted by paganism.

Hmmm... I understood the protestant reformation being based on lay people wanting to interface with bible in their own language rather than have it mediated by the Roman Church; with dissatisfaction with the selling of indulgences and the idea of purgatory; and of course on the desire of secular rulers to take control of Church wealth and exert more influence over the bishops in their realm.

Luther's 95 Theses, which kicked off the reformation, does not mention anything about "the true church" being "corrupted by paganism."

The Great Apostacy refers to the Catholic (and later Protestant and maybe also Orthodox) doctrine that the end times would include a massive falling away from Christianity of previously faithful followers, as predicted in the New Testament.   Perhaps there were some Protestant writers who claimed that it had occurred under the Catholic Church.  Millenarianism was popular in that time period, so the Great Apostacy would fit for those types of writers.

Many Christmas traditions were removed during reformation.  Though some were brought back in latter periods.

Maybe they did, but that does not change the fact that Scandinavian Christians celebrated Jul in ways that were clearly a continuation of how their pagan ancestors did. This is a clear example of how Christianity co-opted and continued local Pagan customs, which is the point of contention. Whether Lutheran reformers at one point used the existence of those traditions to indict the Catholic church (only for Lutheran Scandinavians to continue with those very same traditions afterwards) does not change the fact that the traditions were co-opted in the first place.

Raz, like many, seems to believe that Protestants = Puritans.  The Puritans were against most of the traditional celebrations of Christmas (decorating, singing, feast foods, drinking, visiting friends, etc) which they held to lack any biblical authority and were insufficiently modest and humble.  I'm aware of no Lutheran or Anglican bans on traditional Christmas/Yule activities.

[Razgovory]

I don't know much about Scandinavian traditions, so I won't insult you by pretending to know.  Do keep in mind though, that simply because a custom is old and strange it doesn't mean it's pagan.  Many traditions that were assumed to be pagan are not attested to until long, long after Christianization.  For instance, the Maypole or the Yule Log.  Traditions need to start somewhere and are often newer than you think.


I'm surprised that you don't know about the great apostacy.  If the problem with the Catholic Church was just over reading the Bible and sale of indulgences then there really shouldn't be a problem anymore.

[Jacob]

I don't know much about Scandinavian traditions, so I won't insult you by pretending to know.  Do keep in mind though, that simply because a custom is old and strange it doesn't mean it's pagan.  Many traditions that were assumed to be pagan are not attested to until long, long after Christianization.  For instance, the Maypole or the Yule Log.  Traditions need to start somewhere and are often newer than you think.

For sure. But we have some pretty clear and textual examples of this appropriation.

Heathen Scandinavians Yule tradition included a massive feast where you "drank in the Yule", including drinking toasts to the various Nordic gods and of course a whole bunch of eating. This is attested to in significant number of written sources. Additionally, some of Odin's many names include ones translating to He-who-is-yule and Yule-Father.

The Norwegian King Håkon Adalsteinsfostre (935-961), in the mid-900s moved the yule celebration from mid-January* to match the dates the Church had for the birth of Jesus.

Then in the Gulating Law, another Norwegian King, Olaf Tryggvason (960s – 9 September 1000) imposed fines on households that brewed insufficient beer and failed to drink in the Yule by toasting the infant Jesus and his mother. Drinking in the Yule remained an explicit tradition in Scandinavia until the early 1900s, and Scandinavians absolutely spend a whole bunch of time engaging in fairly formalized drinking during Christmas to this very day. We still brew Yule-Beer - and it's a big deal - much like heathen Scandinavians are attested to have brewed special Yule-Beer and Yule-Mead.

There's a pretty clear transition from Heathen to Christian, and co-opting the ritual and behaviour (and name) of the Heathen Yule.

*Note that there is evidence for Heathen Yule celebrations both during winter solstice (21 - 22 Dec) and midwinter night (19 - 21 Jan) depending on regional and family traditions.

I'm surprised that you don't know about the great apostacy.  If the problem with the Catholic Church was just over reading the Bible and sale of indulgences then there really shouldn't be a problem anymore.

I'm surprised you seem to be discounting the political and financial aspirations of secular rulers as a driving force of the Reformation.

That said, I'm losing track of the point you're trying to make about "the great apostacy". Are you saying it was a serious driver of the initial reformation? That it is something the matters significantly to modern day protestants? Something else?

[Jacob]

As for the Reformation, this is what I was taught in school and a message that has been reinforced over and over again by various pop-historical presentations (i.e. I don't claim to be a serious student of this, and am happy to have my horizons expanded):

• Luther kicked off the Reformation with his 95 theses, decrying the wealth of the church and the selling of indulgences (and the impact it had both on behaviour, and what it implied about faith and God.
• The conditions for conflict were ripe, as secular versions were circulating due the wider adoption of the printing press. This allowed lay people to form strong opinions about the bible, faith, and how the Church should behave. This in turn lead to conflict with the Catholic Church as it was not initially amenable to any sort of input.
• Various rulers embraced popular dissent against the Church, for reasons of genuine faith and/ or for political reasons. Gaining control of the Church's vast wealth (especially land) was significant for a number of secular rulers.
• Once it got going, it was full on a political conflict. It was made more intense and intractable, by the genuine faith (and thus lack of ability to compromise) but the logic was political.

In that context "the great apostacy"-they-are-all-just-pagans-masquerading-as-Christians (which is what I think you're saying) sounds to me like the kind of feel good rhetoric that Protestants might have told themselves to justify their rejection of Catholicism and the actions they took against Catholics. But I don't know that it was central to kicking off the Reformation, nor to keeping the Wars of Religion going once they started.

[Razgovory]

I don't know much about Scandinavian traditions, so I won't insult you by pretending to know.  Do keep in mind though, that simply because a custom is old and strange it doesn't mean it's pagan.  Many traditions that were assumed to be pagan are not attested to until long, long after Christianization.  For instance, the Maypole or the Yule Log.  Traditions need to start somewhere and are often newer than you think.

For sure. But we have some pretty clear and textual examples of this appropriation.

Heathen Scandinavians Yule tradition included a massive feast where you "drank in the Yule", including drinking toasts to the various Nordic gods and of course a whole bunch of eating. This is attested to in significant number of written sources. Additionally, some of Odin's many names include ones translating to He-who-is-yule and Yule-Father.

The Norwegian King Håkon Adalsteinsfostre (935-961), in the mid-900s moved the yule celebration from mid-January* to match the dates the Church had for the birth of Jesus.

Then in the Gulating Law, another Norwegian King, Olaf Tryggvason (960s – 9 September 1000) imposed fines on households that brewed insufficient beer and failed to drink in the Yule by toasting the infant Jesus and his mother. Drinking in the Yule remained an explicit tradition in Scandinavia until the early 1900s, and Scandinavians absolutely spend a whole bunch of time engaging in fairly formalized drinking during Christmas to this very day. We still brew Yule-Beer - and it's a big deal - much like heathen Scandinavians are attested to have brewed special Yule-Beer and Yule-Mead.

There's a pretty clear transition from Heathen to Christian, and co-opting the ritual and behaviour (and name) of the Heathen Yule.

*Note that there is evidence for Heathen Yule celebrations both during winter solstice (21 - 22 Dec) and midwinter night (19 - 21 Jan) depending on regional and family traditions.

I'm surprised that you don't know about the great apostacy.  If the problem with the Catholic Church was just over reading the Bible and sale of indulgences then there really shouldn't be a problem anymore.

I'm surprised you seem to be discounting the political and financial aspirations of secular rulers as a driving force of the Reformation.

That said, I'm losing track of the point you're trying to make about "the great apostacy". Are you saying it was a serious driver of the initial reformation? That it is something the matters significantly to modern day protestants? Something else?

I'm not discounting the political financial reasons for why Protestant reformation.  The point of this was to to say that the pagan-Christian continuum is more about politics and plunder than it does with reality.  More recently it was adopted New Atheist movement, though they have moved on to attacking Muslims more these days.

[Eddie Teach]

Ahem. Apostasy.

[Valmy]

The 25th was not the solstice in the third century.   

The 25th was the day the days started getting longer again. So the symbolism is obvious. The world is in darkness and Jesus comes and bring light. It makes perfect sense why that symbolism would be used in forming a Christian Holiday. Now I don't know, and nobody knows, exactly how and why those decisions were made. I thought it was something like that Jesus was supposed to be conceived the same time of year he was crucified and if you count forward nine months from then you get sort of around December 25th. But that sounds to me like something made up after the fact as a justification but I don't know.

And sure there were all kinds of past cultural influences that went into that celebration.

But it is certainly no specific pagan festival that got dressed up in Christian garb because there is no pagan festival that resembles exactly what Christmas is and was. It has all kinds of different cultural influences as one might expect given the international intercultural reach of the religion. Everybody had some kind of thing going on at different points of the year.

[Valmy]

Besides virtually all of Judaism and Christianity is full of coopted cultural artifacts from some previous culture, probably even a pagan one if we follow this ridiculous and fallacious line of bullshit.

That's definitely true of Judaism (the first part not the fallacious bullshit part).  Much of the Old Testament presumes the existence of other gods (albeit those over which YHVH triumphs ).  The historical writings tells us over and over again how the people of land are worshipping the wrong gods in the wrong ways, confirming the historical and archaeological theories that these were accepted forms of worship in ancient Israel and Judah.

Should we then burn the whole bible as Pagan, Mr. El?

I'd say no but it's a free country.

Well exactly there is no direct evidence of specific pagan festivals that are being converted into Christian ones, we just have some cultural parallels that I find very interesting and cool but others take waaaay too far as some evidence of some kind of secret satanic or pagan agenda or some shit. Just like with Judaism the reigion evolved surrounded by other religions and cultures and was influenced, you can clearly see the Sumerian and Egyptian influences early on and the Person influences in the second Temple period. Likewise the Persian and Greek cultural influences are all over the New Testament.

I just think there is a little bit of a difference between things influencing each other and having a cultural transfer than assume Christmas is somehow NOT Christian but secretly a Pagan festival!!! It is a Christian festival that has some cultural influences. Just like virtually all of Christianity. I mean Zoroastrianism had a Messiah figure who was to be born to a virgin and lead to a final battle between Good and Evil. I am certainly not saying that Christianity is just Zoroastrianism dressed up as Christianity just that the cultural impacts are obvious. You need actual evidence to make that claim not just point out that they are kind of similar if you squint because of some cultural exchanges and influences.

[Razgovory]

Stuff Jacob said.

I will concede that at least in Scandinavia there are examples of Pagan-Christian continuity.

[The Brain]

Stuff Jacob said.

I will concede that at least in Scandinavia there are examples of Pagan-Christian continuity.

[grumbler]

The argument that, if there is no direct evidence, then it didn't happen is a very strange argument for a Christian to make, given that their whole religion is based around events for which there is no evidence.