Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[Jacob]

Can you quote that for me? I'm not seeing any acknowledgement at any point that baseline deaths in the schools were higher than outside the schools for the native population. In fact, setting the baseline of deaths overall at a very high level is the first point raised after saying the current narrative in the media is "entirely made up".

The article says:

Likewise, the certain fact that souls were saved by the missionaries, the enduring belief of Christians that the Gospel is true and must be spread, is paramount; everything else is secondary.

Whatever good was present at the Ossossané ossuary—where those who had not yet encountered the fullness of Truth honored their dead as best they knew how—is increased a thousandfold in the cemeteries of the residential schools, where baptized Christians were given Christian burials. Whatever natural good was present in the piety and community of the pagan past is an infinitesimal fraction of the grace rendered unto those pagans' descendants who have been received into the Church of Christ. Whatever sacrifices were exacted in pursuit of that grace—the suffocation of a noble pagan culture; an increase in disease and bodily death due to government negligence; even the sundering of natural families—is worth it.

[crazy canuck]

Rather than going full Jaron, perhaps you could counter with a substantive response.  Tell me where my criticism of your post was wrong.  Tell me that I am wrong about the Conservatives denying funding to the TRC.  Tell me I am wrong the rough estimates were way off.  Go ahead, I am waiting.

Ok, I will take that as an admission you cannot find fault with my comments and have just decided to go full Jaron.

[Barrister]

Rather than going full Jaron, perhaps you could counter with a substantive response.  Tell me where my criticism of your post was wrong.  Tell me that I am wrong about the Conservatives denying funding to the TRC.  Tell me I am wrong the rough estimates were way off.  Go ahead, I am waiting.

Ok, I will take that as an admission you cannot find fault with my comments and have just decided to go full Jaron.

[Berkut]

AR, the article expressly states  the argument Berkut summarized.

Can you quote that for me? I'm not seeing any acknowledgement at any point that baseline deaths in the schools were higher than outside the schools for the native population. In fact, setting the baseline of deaths overall at a very high level is the first point raised after saying the current narrative in the media is "entirely made up".

First, we have always known that many children died in the residential schools, which were active through the 19th and 20th centuries. Child mortality was relatively high during that period to begin with; Indian mortality overall was astronomically high; and the Church-run schools for native children were systemically underfunded by the government, resulting in subpar facilities and inadequate medical care.

They are not arguing that deaths in the school are not higher - at least, they don't say that explicitly. They kind of dance around that.

But that doesn't effect their core argument that salvation trumps any other concern. They may not admit that deaths in the school were higher, but they are certainly arguing that it would not matter if they were - it would still be worth it.

...the Gospel is true and must be spread, is paramount; everything else is secondary.

And again, their argument makes perfect sense if you accept that there is an eternal life to be had dependent on salvation.

[Berkut]

I actually feel really bad for Barrister. He is a good guy trying to figure out how to square being a religious conservative with what modern religious conservatives have become.

He isn't willing to abandon his faith, nor is he willing to abandon his core identity as a "conservative", but keeps finding himself in company with a bunch of crazy, dangerous, immoral people. He is none of those things, but has to somehow square the reality that his political identity is tied up in modern fanaticism, and doesn't want to examine how that happened.

[Barrister]

I actually feel really bad for Barrister. He is a good guy trying to figure out how to square being a religious conservative with what modern religious conservatives have become.

He isn't willing to abandon his faith, nor is he willing to abandon his core identity as a "conservative", but keeps finding himself in company with a bunch of crazy, dangerous, immoral people. He is none of those things, but has to somehow square the reality that his political identity is tied up in modern fanaticism, and doesn't want to examine how that happened.

Oh good grief.  Just because I refuse to engage in debate with you lot when I get called names doesn't mean I'm incapable of introspection.

[alfred russel]

Can you quote that for me? I'm not seeing any acknowledgement at any point that baseline deaths in the schools were higher than outside the schools for the native population. In fact, setting the baseline of deaths overall at a very high level is the first point raised after saying the current narrative in the media is "entirely made up".

The article says:

Likewise, the certain fact that souls were saved by the missionaries, the enduring belief of Christians that the Gospel is true and must be spread, is paramount; everything else is secondary.

Whatever good was present at the Ossossané ossuary—where those who had not yet encountered the fullness of Truth honored their dead as best they knew how—is increased a thousandfold in the cemeteries of the residential schools, where baptized Christians were given Christian burials. Whatever natural good was present in the piety and community of the pagan past is an infinitesimal fraction of the grace rendered unto those pagans' descendants who have been received into the Church of Christ. Whatever sacrifices were exacted in pursuit of that grace—the suffocation of a noble pagan culture; an increase in disease and bodily death due to government negligence; even the sundering of natural families—is worth it.

Point conceded.

[garbon]

I actually feel really bad for Barrister. He is a good guy trying to figure out how to square being a religious conservative with what modern religious conservatives have become.

He isn't willing to abandon his faith, nor is he willing to abandon his core identity as a "conservative", but keeps finding himself in company with a bunch of crazy, dangerous, immoral people. He is none of those things, but has to somehow square the reality that his political identity is tied up in modern fanaticism, and doesn't want to examine how that happened.

Oh good grief.  Just because I refuse to engage in debate with you lot when I get called names doesn't mean I'm incapable of introspection.

Capable and willing are different states.

[crazy canuck]

Can you quote that for me? I'm not seeing any acknowledgement at any point that baseline deaths in the schools were higher than outside the schools for the native population. In fact, setting the baseline of deaths overall at a very high level is the first point raised after saying the current narrative in the media is "entirely made up".

The article says:

Likewise, the certain fact that souls were saved by the missionaries, the enduring belief of Christians that the Gospel is true and must be spread, is paramount; everything else is secondary.

Whatever good was present at the Ossossané ossuary—where those who had not yet encountered the fullness of Truth honored their dead as best they knew how—is increased a thousandfold in the cemeteries of the residential schools, where baptized Christians were given Christian burials. Whatever natural good was present in the piety and community of the pagan past is an infinitesimal fraction of the grace rendered unto those pagans' descendants who have been received into the Church of Christ. Whatever sacrifices were exacted in pursuit of that grace—the suffocation of a noble pagan culture; an increase in disease and bodily death due to government negligence; even the sundering of natural families—is worth it.

Point conceded.

Those were the parts I quoted in my first post 

[Barrister]

I actually feel really bad for Barrister. He is a good guy trying to figure out how to square being a religious conservative with what modern religious conservatives have become.

He isn't willing to abandon his faith, nor is he willing to abandon his core identity as a "conservative", but keeps finding himself in company with a bunch of crazy, dangerous, immoral people. He is none of those things, but has to somehow square the reality that his political identity is tied up in modern fanaticism, and doesn't want to examine how that happened.

Oh good grief.  Just because I refuse to engage in debate with you lot when I get called names doesn't mean I'm incapable of introspection.

Capable and willing are different states.

[The Minsky Moment]

The Meaning Of The Native Graves
They're good, actually.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-meaning-of-the-native-graves/

If Christianity is about joyfully spreading the news of Christ's redemption in the spirit of love and compassion, what does that make Mr. Leary, with his transparently asinine trolling?

[crazy canuck]

The Meaning Of The Native Graves
They're good, actually.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-meaning-of-the-native-graves/

If Christianity is about joyfully spreading the news of Christ's redemption in the spirit of love and compassion, what does that make Mr. Leary, with his transparently asinine trolling?

The name of the publication that published the piece seems to give a hint.

[ulmont]

Syt, my apologies; I saw that article and thought it fit in perfectly with this thread.  I did not mean to make this the "Canadian Politics Thread 3.0: This Time it's Dumber."

And the whole notion that the death of children is okay because at least they were saved - I don't think any serious Christian would endorse that position.

Barrister, do you realize how many times you have "No True Scotsman"'d for Christianity on Languish?  At some point you gotta accept that the Christian brand is, well, bad and the people that promote it are usually worse.

[Syt]

Don't worry, all good.

[Barrister]

Syt, my apologies; I saw that article and thought it fit in perfectly with this thread.  I did not mean to make this the "Canadian Politics Thread 3.0: This Time it's Dumber."

And the whole notion that the death of children is okay because at least they were saved - I don't think any serious Christian would endorse that position.

Barrister, do you realize how many times you have "No True Scotsman"'d for Christianity on Languish?  At some point you gotta accept that the Christian brand is, well, bad and the people that promote it are usually worse.

Except I don't think I've ever said that TV televangelists, right-wing blowhards, or the like aren't Christians.  You say you believe in Christ, you're a Christian.  The Christian brand is decidedly mixed around the world, with both really high highs, and really low lows.

But I think you can make a distinction between a serious Christian and an unserious one.