Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[Razgovory]

Then you are making a strawman.  Nobody has suggested we exterminate the Palestinians.  I would note that Germany is a terrible example for your argument.  There's a reason why Prussia does not appear on maps these days.

[Threviel]

Don't say something so utterly stupid whilst accusing someone else of being stupid. This is nothing like whataboutism. In fact its you who seems to be taking a side closer to whataboutism.
Lovely of you to continue digging into the white man's burden hole there. If a country has a worse government then you're entitled to do whatever you want to them!

Holy reading comprehension fail Batman! Go watch some Al Aqsa TV or, perhaps more fittingly to your level, read some al Fateh you useful idiot you!

[Duque de Bragança]

I'm always surprised by people who have no use for theocracy in their country but are basically okay with it in Gaza.

Pretty sure they would be happy if gaza were wiped out.

He's talking about you, dude.

That's a bizzare leap if so.
The sort of thing you expect of the fundies we are laughing at - you don't think Israel is an absolutely perfect and saintly country that should be supported beyond question in everything then you must love hamas and want them to rule here too.

I didn't say anything like this.  Let me put it this way:  Genocidal nationalism, and despotic theocracy are an intolerable evil in both the West and the Middle East.        If it is evil at home it is still evil abroad.  Hell, many of the anti-Zionists believe theocracy is bad in the Middle East.  Or at least when ISIS did it a few years back.  The condemnation and hostility towards theocracy evaporates if the theocrats turn their rockets toward Tel Aviv.

Nobody is saying Israel is perfect.  I was horrified by the latest dust-up and consider the fault to fall squarely on the Israelis.  Israel needs to stop the settlements and crack down on the settlers.  Yet this outrage must be tempered by the knowledge that Fatah, Hezbollah and Hamas are much, much worse.  ISIS gave us taste of what a final victory of the Palestinians would look like.

Speaking of strawmen, that's a nice one.

Fatah is member of the Socialist International, so vaguely left-wing. The PLO being mostly Fatah these ways. Very far from Daesh. It's not even on the same page as islamo-nationalist Hamas, which keeps his attacks limited to Israel (and Palestine to suppress other factions). Hamas benefitted from Israeli maneuvers leaving it relatively unharmed to undermine the PLO. That has changed, of course.
Besides, their theocratic rule in Gaza makes easy for Israeli intelligence services to get intel on them, given all the disaffected people.

Hezbollah being a different beast, a proxy of Syria and Iran, terrorist and guerrilla organisation indeed, but not on the level of Daesh. Made a name as a "resistance" organisation in Lebanon thanks to the 1982 Israeli invasion, provoked in no small part by the Abu Nidal organisation, a splinter and bitter rival of Fatah. This very psychotic Abu Nidal mercenary, was responsible for killing more Palestinians than Israelis in internal purges or internecine warfare. He was even condemned to death by the PLO court in absentia, before dying suspiciously in Iraq in 2002.

As for former terrorists making it to power, maybe maybe not. Just look at Israel: Menahem Begin went on to become prime minister, and he was part of Irgun. He signed a peace treaty with Egypt.

That being said, I agree some double standards are ridiculous, but unsurprising, such as national-islamist Turks denouncing the illegal settlement of the West Bank, given the Cyprus shenanigans. Or the lack of criticism in the muslim world towards the treatment of Uighurs by China. Realpolitik for the latter I guess.

Long story short, the Palestinians are screwed, with a divided leadership. If you think the PLO/Fatah in the West Bank is bad and corrupt, it's true but the alternative would be worse, as in Hamas. This is why the international community has turned a blind eye to Fatah overstay in power, due to lack of elections.

[Josquius]

Illegal use of a strawman.  Second offense.  15 yard penalty, and the player is ejected from the game.

Its called an analogy dear.

FFS, Tyr, is it impossible for you to construct logical arguments, or do you simply not bother?

From you.

Don't say something so utterly stupid whilst accusing someone else of being stupid. This is nothing like whataboutism. In fact its you who seems to be taking a side closer to whataboutism.
Lovely of you to continue digging into the white man's burden hole there. If a country has a worse government then you're entitled to do whatever you want to them!

Holy reading comprehension fail Batman! Go watch some Al Aqsa TV or, perhaps more fittingly to your level, read some al Fateh you useful idiot you!

Parlez-vous anglais?
As your blathering makes zero sense.

Then you are making a strawman.  Nobody has suggested we exterminate the Palestinians. 

Yet you do seem to be suggesting we wipe out Palestine. That the entire country is forfeit and worthy of zero sympathy because Hamas are in power in the West Bank.

I would note that Germany is a terrible example for your argument.

Not really. They're a perfect example of a crappy government not necessarily meaning an unworthy people.
Nonetheless at the time there were those making arguments along your lines.

There's a reason why Prussia does not appear on maps these days.

...because Prussia united into Germany and then had most of its old territory conquered?

[Threviel]

Holy reading comprehension fail Batman! Go watch some Al Aqsa TV or, perhaps more fittingly to your level, read some al Fateh you useful idiot you!

Parlez-vous anglais?
As your blathering makes zero sense.

Let me help you:

Holy reading comprehension fail Batman! -> Implies that you did not understand what I was trying to say, something that you seem quite alone about, everyone else seems to have understood ok.

Go watch some Al Aqsa TV -> Implies that you seem to not understand what you are talking about, go study the different Palestinian governments, primarily Hamas, might open your eyes a bit.

or, perhaps more fittingly to your level, read some al Fateh -> Implies that you seem to not understand what you are talking about and that the adult oriented al Aqsa TV might be too complex, so al Fateh is an interesting childrens magazine printed by Hamas.

you useful idiot you! -> Well, the term useful idiot is from the cold war. Go read Wiki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

[Josquius]

Holy reading comprehension fail Batman! Go watch some Al Aqsa TV or, perhaps more fittingly to your level, read some al Fateh you useful idiot you!

Parlez-vous anglais?
As your blathering makes zero sense.

Let me help you:

Holy reading comprehension fail Batman! -> Implies that you did not understand what I was trying to say, something that you seem quite alone about, everyone else seems to have understood ok.

Go watch some Al Aqsa TV -> Implies that you seem to not understand what you are talking about, go study the different Palestinian governments, primarily Hamas, might open your eyes a bit.

or, perhaps more fittingly to your level, read some al Fateh -> Implies that you seem to not understand what you are talking about and that the adult oriented al Aqsa TV might be too complex, so al Fateh is an interesting childrens magazine printed by Hamas.

you useful idiot you! -> Well, the term useful idiot is from the cold war. Go read Wiki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

You seem to be the useful idiot here sunshine.
Interesting you keep barking down that Hamas baaaaad rabbit hole despite it being completely and utterly irrelevant.

[grumbler]

Illegal use of a strawman.  Second offense.  15 yard penalty, and the player is ejected from the game.

Its called an analogy dear.

No, it's not, sweet cheeks.  When you make up the other side's argument, it's called "creating a strawman argument."  An analogy is a comparison of an unfamiliar thing with a familiar thing in order to make the unfamiliar thing more easily understood.  You were comparing nothing.

FFS, Tyr, is it impossible for you to construct logical arguments, or do you simply not bother?

From you.

Ah, so you think that switching from the strawman fallacy to the ad hom fallacy somehow makes your argument more logical?   

That pretty much demonstrates that the correct answer is "impossible."

[Threviel]

You might want to go back and re-phrase your original comment:

The Palestinian government is worse than the Israeli government - a very iffy argument. Pretty straight faced white man's burdenish.

Interpret this as something where Hamas is very much relevant, seeing as they are about half the Palestinian government. If you meant Fatah you should make that explicit, otherwise someone might take offence and think you stupid.

[The Minsky Moment]

Fatah is member of the Socialist International, so vaguely left-wing. The PLO being mostly Fatah these ways. Very far from Daesh. It's not even on the same page as islamo-nationalist Hamas, which keeps his attacks limited to Israel (and Palestine to suppress other factions). Hamas benefitted from Israeli maneuvers leaving it relatively unharmed to undermine the PLO. That has changed, of course.
Besides, their theocratic rule in Gaza makes easy for Israeli intelligence services to get intel on them, given all the disaffected people.

I find this line of argument - i.e. ascribing the genesis and growth of Hamas to Israeli policy - to be interesting on two counts.  On the one hand because (as pointed out by others in the thread) it denies the Palestinian people agency and a role in choosing and shaping their own political expression.  On the other because it ignores the opposite dynamic - that Hamas, its communications, and its tactics - have shaped Israeli politics and the choices that Israeli voters have made over the last few decades.

[Josquius]

You might want to go back and re-phrase your original comment:

The Palestinian government is worse than the Israeli government - a very iffy argument. Pretty straight faced white man's burdenish.

Interpret this as something where Hamas is very much relevant, seeing as they are about half the Palestinian government. If you meant Fatah you should make that explicit, otherwise someone might take offence and think you stupid.

I didn't mean Hamas or Fatah. Neither are relevant at all. Palestine could be governed by baby-killing-ultra-Daesh or the super-sound-peace-and-love-great-at-economics-progressives or anything in between. It has absolutely zero bearing on Palestine's right to exist and the wrongness of Israeli settlements and the nation of Palestine steadily being whittled away.

(Though I guess it would help make the whataboutist arguments of "What about Hamas! They're bad!" harder if the government in Palestine was great.)

[Malthus]

You might want to go back and re-phrase your original comment:

The Palestinian government is worse than the Israeli government - a very iffy argument. Pretty straight faced white man's burdenish.

Interpret this as something where Hamas is very much relevant, seeing as they are about half the Palestinian government. If you meant Fatah you should make that explicit, otherwise someone might take offence and think you stupid.

I didn't mean Hamas or Fatah. Neither are relevant at all. Palestine could be governed by baby-killing-ultra-Daesh or the super-sound-peace-and-love-great-at-economics-progressives or anything in between. It has absolutely zero bearing on Palestine's right to exist and the wrongness of Israeli settlements and the nation of Palestine steadily being whittled away.

(Though I guess it would help make the whataboutist arguments of "What about Hamas! They're bad!" harder if the government in Palestine was great.)

Is anyone arguing that Palestine has no right to exist, or that Israel is right to take ever more Palestinian land as settlements?

[Tonitrus]

Being that states/nations are essentially artificial constructs of humans banding together for some kind of common good(?), I am not sure that I agree that any specific, named "nation" has an inherent "right to exist".

After all, the USA had no historical right to exist beyond the actions that those who formed it took to make it so.  One can (and we do), argue if those actions were legitimate or ethical or justifiable...but there we are. 

[Tonitrus]

And for Tyr's earlier comment...I think that if a nation does become a bunch of baby-killing fanatics (and lets throw in cannibal, Thulsa Doom worshipping snake worshippers, just for good measure.), I could easily see a justifiable argument in saying that such a nation/state would be better if others made it stop existing.*



*To avert the strawman deployers, this doesn't mean extermination of individuals in said nation.

[The Minsky Moment]

Is anyone arguing that Palestine has no right to exist, or that Israel is right to take ever more Palestinian land as settlements?

Anyone here or anyone generally?
Lots of people in the world have made that argument, including the last Israeli prime minister and the current one.

[Josquius]

Being that states/nations are essentially artificial constructs of humans banding together for some kind of common good(?), I am not sure that I agree that any specific, named "nation" has an inherent "right to exist".

After all, the USA had no historical right to exist beyond the actions that those who formed it took to make it so.  One can (and we do), argue if those actions were legitimate or ethical or justifiable...but there we are.

American history is rather different as a settler nation. I'd definitely say history would have gone better if it didn't exist. Though I don't think anyone (sane) would argue today America doesn't deserve to exist.
All people deserve self-determination. If the Palestinians and Israelis get together and agree that a new united nation is the way to go then huzzah for them. Though thats not what the Palestinians want, so however awful their current government may be their nation deserves to exist.

And for Tyr's earlier comment...I think that if a nation does become a bunch of baby-killing fanatics (and lets throw in cannibal, Thulsa Doom worshipping snake worshippers, just for good measure.), I could easily see a justifiable argument in saying that such a nation/state would be better if others made it stop existing.*

*To avert the strawman deployers, this doesn't mean extermination of individuals in said nation.

Maybe if the nation is firmly artificial and based solely on the ideology of baby eating.
But in cases like Hamas or the Nazi Germany analogy where a bunch of arse holes manage to take over a nation (or a chunk of it)? -  the regime needs to go for sure, and efforts made to stop it coming back, but the nation hasn't forfeited its right of existence.

You might want to go back and re-phrase your original comment:

The Palestinian government is worse than the Israeli government - a very iffy argument. Pretty straight faced white man's burdenish.

Interpret this as something where Hamas is very much relevant, seeing as they are about half the Palestinian government. If you meant Fatah you should make that explicit, otherwise someone might take offence and think you stupid.

I didn't mean Hamas or Fatah. Neither are relevant at all. Palestine could be governed by baby-killing-ultra-Daesh or the super-sound-peace-and-love-great-at-economics-progressives or anything in between. It has absolutely zero bearing on Palestine's right to exist and the wrongness of Israeli settlements and the nation of Palestine steadily being whittled away.

(Though I guess it would help make the whataboutist arguments of "What about Hamas! They're bad!" harder if the government in Palestine was great.)

Is anyone arguing that Palestine has no right to exist, or that Israel is right to take ever more Palestinian land as settlements?

Thats what Raz apparently objected to. Commenting about the evangelicals unwavering support for Israel in all things, that they see it is an apocalyptic there can be only one sort of situation, and my reply to Ed that these days the old image of Israel being under existential threat from all sides doesn't hold up.