Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[Malthus]

]

I didn't say anything like this.  Let me put it this way:  Genocidal nationalism, and despotic theocracy are an intolerable evil in both the West and the Middle East.        If it is evil at home it is still evil abroad.  Hell, many of the anti-Zionists believe theocracy is bad in the Middle East.  Or at least when ISIS did it a few years back.  The condemnation and hostility towards theocracy evaporates if the theocrats turn their rockets toward Tel Aviv.

Nobody is saying Israel is perfect.  I was horrified by the latest dust-up and consider the fault to fall squarely on the Israelis.  Israel needs to stop the settlements and crack down on the settlers.  Yet this outrage must be tempered by the knowledge that Fatah, Hezbollah and Hamas are much, much worse.  ISIS gave us taste of what a final victory of the Palestinians would look like.

I don't think you understand the bulk of mainstream western critics of Israel.
Nobody wants a "final victory or the Palestinians", the very idea of it is mad, it just isn't going to happen. It isn't 1970 any longer, and it's pretty obvious wiping a nation off the map is not a great idea.

The Palestinian government is worse than the Israeli government - a very iffy argument. Pretty straight faced white man's burdenish. Only without the positive spin of there being any intent to help the less developed people.
Palestine as a country in perpetual crisis and hanging on by a thread will naturally tend towards extremists. For any criticism of the political situation in Palestine some of the blame must point Israels way. Regardless its irrelevant to the whole issue, the Palestinian people deserve their independence no matter what.

The fact of the matter is both sides are pretty dickish. But in that sort of situation then it's the biggest and strongest dick that you condemn the most. They're by far the ones behaving the worst at the moment. That if the shoe was on the other foot Palestine would be worse is irrelevant as it's not and isn't going to be.
That Israel is supposed to be a western Liberal democracy and does what it does makes them all the more worthy of criticism - and more likely to actually be swayed.
The bulk of the responsibility for making moves in the peace process is on Israel. Agency is theirs. The Palestinians are such a small player in their own crisis that stuff like the settlements doesn't even involve them, it's entirely on Israels head to stop doing that.

This is exactly why Israelis tend to not listen to criticism from left leaning Western critics. They know they will be criticized no matter what they do, that the critics will simply blame them for the situation no matter what, that the critics impute no agency whatsoever to the Palestinians.

Not that there isn't anything to critique on the Israeli side. There is plenty. But the volume and tone of much Western critique is self-defeating, if the intent is to actually influence Israeli behaviour.

You can see this in the commonly thrown around terms like "apartheid" and "genocide". Used too loosely, the terms become meaningless, mere verbiage - a rhetoric of attack that identifies the Israelis as the enemy.

[Syt]

I think Israel suffers, among other things, from a similar problem as the U.S. As democratic state with a rule grounded in laws and human rights, they're often held to a higher standard than the Russias or Chinas of the world (whether that is fair or justified is a separate discussion), leading to a stronger (and sometimes exaggerated) backlash.

[Razgovory]

]

I didn't say anything like this.  Let me put it this way:  Genocidal nationalism, and despotic theocracy are an intolerable evil in both the West and the Middle East.        If it is evil at home it is still evil abroad.  Hell, many of the anti-Zionists believe theocracy is bad in the Middle East.  Or at least when ISIS did it a few years back.  The condemnation and hostility towards theocracy evaporates if the theocrats turn their rockets toward Tel Aviv.

Nobody is saying Israel is perfect.  I was horrified by the latest dust-up and consider the fault to fall squarely on the Israelis.  Israel needs to stop the settlements and crack down on the settlers.  Yet this outrage must be tempered by the knowledge that Fatah, Hezbollah and Hamas are much, much worse.  ISIS gave us taste of what a final victory of the Palestinians would look like.

I don't think you understand the bulk of mainstream western critics of Israel.
Nobody wants a "final victory or the Palestinians", the very idea of it is mad, it just isn't going to happen. It isn't 1970 any longer, and it's pretty obvious wiping a nation off the map is not a great idea.

The Palestinian government is worse than the Israeli government - a very iffy argument. Pretty straight faced white man's burdenish. Only without the positive spin of there being any intent to help the less developed people.
Palestine as a country in perpetual crisis and hanging on by a thread will naturally tend towards extremists. For any criticism of the political situation in Palestine some of the blame must point Israels way. Regardless its irrelevant to the whole issue, the Palestinian people deserve their independence no matter what.

The fact of the matter is both sides are pretty dickish. But in that sort of situation then it's the biggest and strongest dick that you condemn the most. They're by far the ones behaving the worst at the moment. That if the shoe was on the other foot Palestine would be worse is irrelevant as it's not and isn't going to be.
That Israel is supposed to be a western Liberal democracy and does what it does makes them all the more worthy of criticism - and more likely to actually be swayed.
The bulk of the responsibility for making moves in the peace process is on Israel. Agency is theirs. The Palestinians are such a small player in their own crisis that stuff like the settlements doesn't even involve them, it's entirely on Israels head to stop doing that.

This is the bigotry of low expectations...  The Palestinians have agency. If they execute a gay person or a Muslim who sold land to a Jew it's not Israel's fault.

[Josquius]

This is the bigotry of low expectations...  The Palestinians have agency. If they execute a gay person or a Muslim who sold land to a Jew it's not Israel's fault.

Which is irrelevant to the issue.

[Threviel]

The Palestinian government is worse than the Israeli government - a very iffy argument. Pretty straight faced white man's burdenish. Only without the positive spin of there being any intent to help the less developed people.

What the flying fuck kind of an idiot says something so insanely stupid? That's Trump level whataboutism from the left.

I mean yeah, the Palestinians haven't had a good century with everyone and their mother pecking on them. But that does not give them the right to be a completely evil totalitarian police state. They are, AFAIK, borderline ISIS in Gaza and Fatah is just your regular incompetent Arab state jacked up to eleven. In no way, shape or form is it an iffy argument to claim that the Palestinian government is worse than the Israeli.

[Razgovory]

This is the bigotry of low expectations...  The Palestinians have agency. If they execute a gay person or a Muslim who sold land to a Jew it's not Israel's fault.

Which is irrelevant to the issue.

What is relevant then?

[Josquius]

This is the bigotry of low expectations...  The Palestinians have agency. If they execute a gay person or a Muslim who sold land to a Jew it's not Israel's fault.

Which is irrelevant to the issue.

What is relevant then?

The conflict between the two, Palestinian attacks on Israel, Israeli attacks on Palestine, settlements, the border wall, checkpoints, status of Jerusalem, cross-border workers, land exchanges, etc...

The Palestinian government is worse than the Israeli government - a very iffy argument. Pretty straight faced white man's burdenish. Only without the positive spin of there being any intent to help the less developed people.

What the flying fuck kind of an idiot says something so insanely stupid? That's Trump level whataboutism from the left.

I mean yeah, the Palestinians haven't had a good century with everyone and their mother pecking on them. But that does not give them the right to be a completely evil totalitarian police state. They are, AFAIK, borderline ISIS in Gaza and Fatah is just your regular incompetent Arab state jacked up to eleven. In no way, shape or form is it an iffy argument to claim that the Palestinian government is worse than the Israeli.

Don't say something so utterly stupid whilst accusing someone else of being stupid. This is nothing like whataboutism. In fact its you who seems to be taking a side closer to whataboutism.
Lovely of you to continue digging into the white man's burden hole there. If a country has a worse government then you're entitled to do whatever you want to them!

[Tonitrus]

This is the bigotry of low expectations...  The Palestinians have agency. If they execute a gay person or a Muslim who sold land to a Jew it's not Israel's fault.

Which is irrelevant to the issue.

What is relevant then?

The conflict between the two, Palestinian attacks on Israel, Israeli attacks on Palestine, settlements, the border wall, checkpoints, status of Jerusalem, cross-border workers, land exchanges, etc...

The Palestinian government is worse than the Israeli government - a very iffy argument. Pretty straight faced white man's burdenish. Only without the positive spin of there being any intent to help the less developed people.

What the flying fuck kind of an idiot says something so insanely stupid? That's Trump level whataboutism from the left.

I mean yeah, the Palestinians haven't had a good century with everyone and their mother pecking on them. But that does not give them the right to be a completely evil totalitarian police state. They are, AFAIK, borderline ISIS in Gaza and Fatah is just your regular incompetent Arab state jacked up to eleven. In no way, shape or form is it an iffy argument to claim that the Palestinian government is worse than the Israeli.

Don't say something so utterly stupid whilst accusing someone else of being stupid. This is nothing like whataboutism. In fact its you who seems to be taking a side closer to whataboutism.
Lovely of you to continue digging into the white man's burden hole there. If a country has a worse government then you're entitled to do whatever you want to them!

Illegal use of a strawman.  15 yard penalty, and loss of down.

[Josquius]

Illegal use of a strawman.  15 yard penalty, and loss of down.

Thats effectively what he is defending. The Palestinian government is shitty ergo its right to support Israel. That's an awful argument which really does lead down the lines of 19th century excuses.
There could be some potential glimpses of viability in that if Israel was actually helping Palestine to develop, but that has absolutely nothing to do with their actions...which are having quite the opposite effect.

[Razgovory]

This is the bigotry of low expectations...  The Palestinians have agency. If they execute a gay person or a Muslim who sold land to a Jew it's not Israel's fault.

Which is irrelevant to the issue.

What is relevant then?

The conflict between the two, Palestinian attacks on Israel, Israeli attacks on Palestine, settlements, the border wall, checkpoints, status of Jerusalem, cross-border workers, land exchanges, etc...

I would think that nature of the Palestinian regime is an important factor in deciding if a possible Palestinian state should exist.  It's a factor in international relations everywhere else.  You have proven my point that people who decry religious fundamentalism in their home country are basically okay with in Gaza.  It's not their fault!  The Israelis made them that way!  I can also see why you defended Corbyn so much on this matter.

[Josquius]

I would think that nature of the Palestinian regime is an important factor in deciding if a possible Palestinian state should exist.  It's a factor in international relations everywhere else.  You have proven my point that people who decry religious fundamentalism in their home country are basically okay with in Gaza.  It's not their fault!  The Israelis made them that way!  I can also see why you defended Corbyn so much on this matter.

So...China shouldn't exist because the CCP is so awful?
After WW2 Germany should have just been cleansed from the face of the earth?

Interesting you keep assuming with zero evidence that I'm OK with Gaza.

[Razgovory]

Illegal use of a strawman.  15 yard penalty, and loss of down.

Thats effectively what he is defending. The Palestinian government is shitty ergo its right to support Israel. That's an awful argument which really does lead down the lines of 19th century excuses.
There could be some potential glimpses of viability in that if Israel was actually helping Palestine to develop, but that has absolutely nothing to do with their actions...which are having quite the opposite effect.

[Razgovory]

I would think that nature of the Palestinian regime is an important factor in deciding if a possible Palestinian state should exist.  It's a factor in international relations everywhere else.  You have proven my point that people who decry religious fundamentalism in their home country are basically okay with in Gaza.  It's not their fault!  The Israelis made them that way!  I can also see why you defended Corbyn so much on this matter.

So...China shouldn't exist because the CCP is so awful?
After WW2 Germany should have just been cleansed from the face of the earth?

Interesting you keep assuming with zero evidence that I'm OK with Gaza.

I am perfectly fine with the idea that the governments on Nazi Germany and the People's Republic of China should not exist.

[Josquius]

I would think that nature of the Palestinian regime is an important factor in deciding if a possible Palestinian state should exist.  It's a factor in international relations everywhere else.  You have proven my point that people who decry religious fundamentalism in their home country are basically okay with in Gaza.  It's not their fault!  The Israelis made them that way!  I can also see why you defended Corbyn so much on this matter.

So...China shouldn't exist because the CCP is so awful?
After WW2 Germany should have just been cleansed from the face of the earth?

Interesting you keep assuming with zero evidence that I'm OK with Gaza.

I am perfectly fine with the idea that the governments on Nazi Germany and the People's Republic of China should not exist.

I specified the nations of Germany and China.

[grumbler]

So...China shouldn't exist because the CCP is so awful?
After WW2 Germany should have just been cleansed from the face of the earth?

Illegal use of a strawman.  Second offense.  15 yard penalty, and the player is ejected from the game.


FFS, Tyr, is it impossible for you to construct logical arguments, or do you simply not bother?