Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[The Brain]

I didn't even know there was girls wrestling.

Have you been living in a heartland basement?

[grumbler]

If he's upset about the mere fact they're doing sports with someone who is trans?
Yes. He's just a cunt.

Let's say he claims it's about the strength imbalance.

There's always a strength imbalance in any wrestling match.  No two people are exactly the same strength.

[Syt]

[Tamas]

It's a non issue.
Who qualifies as a woman for the purpose of taking part in high level sport is something the sports themselves have been struggling with since the mid 20th century. It's an interesting topic if you're into sports rules nerdery but nothing to get yourself worked up about. Definitely not a political issue.

And yes. Bigotry is their motive. They often pretend to be about protecting women and other such nonsense but this is a shallow bad faith mask.

The fallacy is that they pretend it's the left trying to push unreasonable rules to change the way things are when in fact its them trying to introduce brand new rules to stop trans people just getting on with their life.

I agree with the motives on the right but still in terms of sports I can very much symphatise with the (theoretical) women who invest their whole life into a physical sport with the understanding that they will be competing against their own sex (i.e. has a realistic chance  of reaching the top), just to be encountering a man who self-declare their chromosomes to have been mistaken.

It should be left to the sport organisations to do as they please. I mean, nobody is making a fuss over boxing matches being organised around weight classes. 

[The Brain]

It's a non issue.
Who qualifies as a woman for the purpose of taking part in high level sport is something the sports themselves have been struggling with since the mid 20th century. It's an interesting topic if you're into sports rules nerdery but nothing to get yourself worked up about. Definitely not a political issue.

And yes. Bigotry is their motive. They often pretend to be about protecting women and other such nonsense but this is a shallow bad faith mask.

The fallacy is that they pretend it's the left trying to push unreasonable rules to change the way things are when in fact its them trying to introduce brand new rules to stop trans people just getting on with their life.

I agree with the motives on the right but still in terms of sports I can very much symphatise with the (theoretical) women who invest their whole life into a physical sport with the understanding that they will be competing against their own sex (i.e. has a realistic chance  of reaching the top), just to be encountering a man who self-declare their chromosomes to have been mistaken.

It should be left to the sport organisations to do as they please. I mean, nobody is making a fuss over boxing matches being organised around weight classes.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if transwomen are women I don't see how you could ban them from women's sports without twisting yourself into an unflattering knot that smells like bigotry.

[Tamas]

It's a non issue.
Who qualifies as a woman for the purpose of taking part in high level sport is something the sports themselves have been struggling with since the mid 20th century. It's an interesting topic if you're into sports rules nerdery but nothing to get yourself worked up about. Definitely not a political issue.

And yes. Bigotry is their motive. They often pretend to be about protecting women and other such nonsense but this is a shallow bad faith mask.

The fallacy is that they pretend it's the left trying to push unreasonable rules to change the way things are when in fact its them trying to introduce brand new rules to stop trans people just getting on with their life.

I agree with the motives on the right but still in terms of sports I can very much symphatise with the (theoretical) women who invest their whole life into a physical sport with the understanding that they will be competing against their own sex (i.e. has a realistic chance  of reaching the top), just to be encountering a man who self-declare their chromosomes to have been mistaken.

It should be left to the sport organisations to do as they please. I mean, nobody is making a fuss over boxing matches being organised around weight classes.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if transwomen are women I don't see how you could ban them from women's sports without twisting yourself into an unflattering knot that smells like bigotry.

Well yes either we eliminate the concept of biological sexes altogether or acknowledge they exist, there is no middle ground.

[The Brain]

It's a non issue.
Who qualifies as a woman for the purpose of taking part in high level sport is something the sports themselves have been struggling with since the mid 20th century. It's an interesting topic if you're into sports rules nerdery but nothing to get yourself worked up about. Definitely not a political issue.

And yes. Bigotry is their motive. They often pretend to be about protecting women and other such nonsense but this is a shallow bad faith mask.

The fallacy is that they pretend it's the left trying to push unreasonable rules to change the way things are when in fact its them trying to introduce brand new rules to stop trans people just getting on with their life.

I agree with the motives on the right but still in terms of sports I can very much symphatise with the (theoretical) women who invest their whole life into a physical sport with the understanding that they will be competing against their own sex (i.e. has a realistic chance  of reaching the top), just to be encountering a man who self-declare their chromosomes to have been mistaken.

It should be left to the sport organisations to do as they please. I mean, nobody is making a fuss over boxing matches being organised around weight classes.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if transwomen are women I don't see how you could ban them from women's sports without twisting yourself into an unflattering knot that smells like bigotry.

Well yes either we eliminate the concept of biological sexes altogether or acknowledge they exist, there is no middle ground.

There have always been people of old privilege that are negatively impacted by their end. The rich kid who trained to become Olympic champion and then they let pros (ie poors) into the Olympics. The white baseball player who grew up in the belief that he wouldn't have to compete with blacks and then they integrate baseball. I don't think top cis-women athletes are fragile creatures who cannot handle change.

[Tamas]

It's a non issue.
Who qualifies as a woman for the purpose of taking part in high level sport is something the sports themselves have been struggling with since the mid 20th century. It's an interesting topic if you're into sports rules nerdery but nothing to get yourself worked up about. Definitely not a political issue.

And yes. Bigotry is their motive. They often pretend to be about protecting women and other such nonsense but this is a shallow bad faith mask.

The fallacy is that they pretend it's the left trying to push unreasonable rules to change the way things are when in fact its them trying to introduce brand new rules to stop trans people just getting on with their life.

I agree with the motives on the right but still in terms of sports I can very much symphatise with the (theoretical) women who invest their whole life into a physical sport with the understanding that they will be competing against their own sex (i.e. has a realistic chance  of reaching the top), just to be encountering a man who self-declare their chromosomes to have been mistaken.

It should be left to the sport organisations to do as they please. I mean, nobody is making a fuss over boxing matches being organised around weight classes.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if transwomen are women I don't see how you could ban them from women's sports without twisting yourself into an unflattering knot that smells like bigotry.

Well yes either we eliminate the concept of biological sexes altogether or acknowledge they exist, there is no middle ground.

There have always been people of old privilege that are negatively impacted by their end. The rich kid who trained to become Olympic champion and then they let pros (ie poors) into the Olympics. The white baseball player who grew up in the belief that he wouldn't have to compete with blacks and then they integrate baseball. I don't think top cis-women athletes are fragile creatures who cannot handle change.

Fine, but in that case a women-men division in sport makes absolutely zero sense. I mean, it never made any sense in a lot of sports, but you can see the argument in sports which are predominantly about physical strength.

If we say, birth sex should be irrelevant for which competition you are allowed into, that's fine with me, but I suspect it won't be fine with a lot of competitors of either sex, and perhaps their preference should be... preferenced on account of their relative numbers.

[The Brain]

It's a non issue.
Who qualifies as a woman for the purpose of taking part in high level sport is something the sports themselves have been struggling with since the mid 20th century. It's an interesting topic if you're into sports rules nerdery but nothing to get yourself worked up about. Definitely not a political issue.

And yes. Bigotry is their motive. They often pretend to be about protecting women and other such nonsense but this is a shallow bad faith mask.

The fallacy is that they pretend it's the left trying to push unreasonable rules to change the way things are when in fact its them trying to introduce brand new rules to stop trans people just getting on with their life.

I agree with the motives on the right but still in terms of sports I can very much symphatise with the (theoretical) women who invest their whole life into a physical sport with the understanding that they will be competing against their own sex (i.e. has a realistic chance  of reaching the top), just to be encountering a man who self-declare their chromosomes to have been mistaken.

It should be left to the sport organisations to do as they please. I mean, nobody is making a fuss over boxing matches being organised around weight classes.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if transwomen are women I don't see how you could ban them from women's sports without twisting yourself into an unflattering knot that smells like bigotry.

Well yes either we eliminate the concept of biological sexes altogether or acknowledge they exist, there is no middle ground.

There have always been people of old privilege that are negatively impacted by their end. The rich kid who trained to become Olympic champion and then they let pros (ie poors) into the Olympics. The white baseball player who grew up in the belief that he wouldn't have to compete with blacks and then they integrate baseball. I don't think top cis-women athletes are fragile creatures who cannot handle change.

Fine, but in that case a women-men division in sport makes absolutely zero sense. I mean, it never made any sense in a lot of sports, but you can see the argument in sports which are predominantly about physical strength.

If we say, birth sex should be irrelevant for which competition you are allowed into, that's fine with me, but I suspect it won't be fine with a lot of competitors of either sex, and perhaps their preference should be... preferenced on account of their relative numbers.

If sports want to get rid of the men-women divide then I don't have a problem with it (though I wouldn't do it myself). But if they keep it but don't let all women compete in the women category then that seems to me to be unsound.

[Tamas]

It's a non issue.
Who qualifies as a woman for the purpose of taking part in high level sport is something the sports themselves have been struggling with since the mid 20th century. It's an interesting topic if you're into sports rules nerdery but nothing to get yourself worked up about. Definitely not a political issue.

And yes. Bigotry is their motive. They often pretend to be about protecting women and other such nonsense but this is a shallow bad faith mask.

The fallacy is that they pretend it's the left trying to push unreasonable rules to change the way things are when in fact its them trying to introduce brand new rules to stop trans people just getting on with their life.

I agree with the motives on the right but still in terms of sports I can very much symphatise with the (theoretical) women who invest their whole life into a physical sport with the understanding that they will be competing against their own sex (i.e. has a realistic chance  of reaching the top), just to be encountering a man who self-declare their chromosomes to have been mistaken.

It should be left to the sport organisations to do as they please. I mean, nobody is making a fuss over boxing matches being organised around weight classes.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if transwomen are women I don't see how you could ban them from women's sports without twisting yourself into an unflattering knot that smells like bigotry.

Well yes either we eliminate the concept of biological sexes altogether or acknowledge they exist, there is no middle ground.

There have always been people of old privilege that are negatively impacted by their end. The rich kid who trained to become Olympic champion and then they let pros (ie poors) into the Olympics. The white baseball player who grew up in the belief that he wouldn't have to compete with blacks and then they integrate baseball. I don't think top cis-women athletes are fragile creatures who cannot handle change.

Fine, but in that case a women-men division in sport makes absolutely zero sense. I mean, it never made any sense in a lot of sports, but you can see the argument in sports which are predominantly about physical strength.

If we say, birth sex should be irrelevant for which competition you are allowed into, that's fine with me, but I suspect it won't be fine with a lot of competitors of either sex, and perhaps their preference should be... preferenced on account of their relative numbers.

If sports want to get rid of the men-women divide then I don't have a problem with it (though I wouldn't do it myself). But if they keep it but don't let all women compete in the women category then that seems to me to be unsound.

Depends on the definition of "woman" they want to apply though doesn't it. A matter of self-declaration (i.e. a meaningless social construct aimed at confining people to pre-determined and restricted castes of social norms) or a reference to biological sex (a matter of fact except for about 10 people on the entire planet).

[The Brain]

It's a non issue.
Who qualifies as a woman for the purpose of taking part in high level sport is something the sports themselves have been struggling with since the mid 20th century. It's an interesting topic if you're into sports rules nerdery but nothing to get yourself worked up about. Definitely not a political issue.

And yes. Bigotry is their motive. They often pretend to be about protecting women and other such nonsense but this is a shallow bad faith mask.

The fallacy is that they pretend it's the left trying to push unreasonable rules to change the way things are when in fact its them trying to introduce brand new rules to stop trans people just getting on with their life.

I agree with the motives on the right but still in terms of sports I can very much symphatise with the (theoretical) women who invest their whole life into a physical sport with the understanding that they will be competing against their own sex (i.e. has a realistic chance  of reaching the top), just to be encountering a man who self-declare their chromosomes to have been mistaken.

It should be left to the sport organisations to do as they please. I mean, nobody is making a fuss over boxing matches being organised around weight classes.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if transwomen are women I don't see how you could ban them from women's sports without twisting yourself into an unflattering knot that smells like bigotry.

Well yes either we eliminate the concept of biological sexes altogether or acknowledge they exist, there is no middle ground.

There have always been people of old privilege that are negatively impacted by their end. The rich kid who trained to become Olympic champion and then they let pros (ie poors) into the Olympics. The white baseball player who grew up in the belief that he wouldn't have to compete with blacks and then they integrate baseball. I don't think top cis-women athletes are fragile creatures who cannot handle change.

Fine, but in that case a women-men division in sport makes absolutely zero sense. I mean, it never made any sense in a lot of sports, but you can see the argument in sports which are predominantly about physical strength.

If we say, birth sex should be irrelevant for which competition you are allowed into, that's fine with me, but I suspect it won't be fine with a lot of competitors of either sex, and perhaps their preference should be... preferenced on account of their relative numbers.

If sports want to get rid of the men-women divide then I don't have a problem with it (though I wouldn't do it myself). But if they keep it but don't let all women compete in the women category then that seems to me to be unsound.

Depends on the definition of "woman" they want to apply though doesn't it. A matter of self-declaration (i.e. a meaningless social construct aimed at confining people to pre-determined and restricted castes of social norms) or a reference to biological sex (a matter of fact except for about 10 people on the entire planet).

I don't know which definition is best for society, and I know even less about which definition we will actually land on when all is said and done. Whatever the definition is though, I think it's unsound to have a women's category that isn't for all women.

NB: I personally don't care at all which definition is used by society. I don't know enough about the details to have an informed opinion.

[Eddie Teach]

Insistence on letting XY people compete in women's sports is just socially acceptable misogyny imo.

[Josquius]

The thing that always gets forgotten in this is that its not just a case of whether trans people can compete. Sports governing bodies have long grappled with this problem given that we know that gender isn't a binary and when you get to the very top level of sports then slight genetic advantages can really make the difference so women with heavy intersex features pop up more than you might think.

At the moment IIRC the current way things are defined is based on testosterone levels and people with naturally higher testosterone (which will cover most trans people) must take drugs to suppress this.
Doubtless this will change again in the not too distant future.

I've posted this before but I found this video really interesting on the topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiCftTLUzCI

I agree with the motives on the right but still in terms of sports I can very much symphatise with the (theoretical) women who invest their whole life into a physical sport with the understanding that they will be competing against their own sex (i.e. has a realistic chance  of reaching the top), just to be encountering a man who self-declare their chromosomes to have been mistaken.

There's a lot more to sex than chromosomes.  And again here be wary of the lies of the regressive right, that some guy can just wake up and declare himself a woman and enter a woman's tournament. Nobody wants that.
I guess here too you've got to consider say the person who lives for basketball and trains all their life for it...but who is just 160cm tall.

Insistence on letting XY people compete in women's sports is just socially acceptable misogyny imo.

[Eddie Teach]

Laugh all you want. You're basically telling XX people who want a space where they can excel as athletes "get good".

[Tamas]

Tyr what else is there to somebody's sex than chromosomes? You might mean gender.

And you say people shouldn't just decide one morning they are women and be able to compete in women's sports so I don't think you are on a different opinion here than the ones you criticise.