Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[crazy canuck]

The problem is that those outdoor spaces can become very crowded - hence the reason for shutting them down.  The Chief outside Squamish is a very good example. 

[alfred russel]

Horseshit.

You said, specifically, that "this isn't that bad". The "this" being the epidemic.

Compared to the countermeasures? Absolutely it isn't.

You keep referencing rock climbing, then immediately pointing out that it isn't about "just" rock climbing. This seems like a way for you to demand that anyone interested in controlling for an epidemic do so while comparing to your singular example of a lockdown that seems silly, while dismissing the actual millions effected adversely, since they would all be dead rock climbing or not.

I wonder if you can ever think about anything outside of carefully constructed strawmen that you can then crow about how brilliant you are for predicting that people don't like lockdowns?

Is it a strawman to say that in a free society--absent a pandemic--people should be free to hike, and camp, and go to church, and to protest, and to go to bars, and go to the beach, and launch their boats in the ocean, and otherwise congregate socially?

I just came back from Vegas. Check out their flight arrivals tomorrow:

https://www.mccarran.com/Flights/Arrivals

I'm not going to count, but it is probably over 100. 15 just from Atlanta. There are signs all over the airport welcoming people back and saying they are glad to have you back in Vegas.

You know the main attractions to Vegas are indoors. Casinos, bars, nightclubs, and shows. That is a democratic city in a democratic state. Apparently a few churches held services in casinos in Nevada because the casinos had less restrictions on the number of people that could enter.

My experience is that I could climb at an indoor gym or do things like go bowling before the main Georgia climbing area opened. The Appalachian Trail was closed for a really long time--I'm not sure the shelters on it have even reopened yet.

You guys can say I jumped the shark on talking about shills and self important politicians, but these decisions aren't based on preventing covid. They are financial and political. It probably won't be too hard to find republican politicians that complained about BLM protests and covid spread, or democratic ones that were cool with BLM but criticized lockdown protests.

[Razgovory]

One thing that I noticed about my grandparents and what appears pretty common among my grandparent's generation - who experienced the dirty 30s and WW2 - is just how addicted to saving stuff they were.

My grandparents saved every damn thing - bits of string, rubber bands, rags. All neatly labelled and packaged, not in a chaotic hoarding sense. They kept large stocks of non-perishable goods on hand.

It was pretty clear they lived through a time when you could not get, say, a rubber band when you needed one, and that this left its mark.

Yeah, my grandparents did that sort of thing too.  They absolutely did not trust the stock market or banks.  When my Grandmother died there was something like 300000 bucks hidden away.

[Jacob]

My daughter still can't swim.

See I think there are some real arguments to have about what to shut down and what to allow to go ahead with proper protocols.

Out here in BC, stuff like kids sports has been allowed to go ahead (with various protocols in place)  and we haven't shut down any trails or anything either. So Dorsey could've gone rock climbing and your daughter could've gone swimming if you were in BC. And IMO, society wide there are real and valuable mental health benefits there, benefits that shouldn't be sacrificed lightly. And, as far as I know, we haven't had any infections as a result of any of those type of activities - it's mostly been care homes, weddings, people going to bars and restaurants, gyms, and that sort of thing. Basically indoor gatherings of any sort.

So yeah, I think there's a balance to be struck there. And I think decision-makers aren't always going to get it exactly right.

[Berkut]

My daughter still can't swim.

See I think there are some real arguments to have about what to shut down and what to allow to go ahead with proper protocols.

Out here in BC, stuff like kids sports has been allowed to go ahead (with various protocols in place)  and we haven't shut down any trails or anything either. So Dorsey could've gone rock climbing and your daughter could've gone swimming if you were in BC. And IMO, society wide there are real and valuable mental health benefits there, benefits that shouldn't be sacrificed lightly. And, as far as I know, we haven't had any infections as a result of any of those type of activities - it's mostly been care homes, weddings, people going to bars and restaurants, gyms, and that sort of thing. Basically indoor gatherings of any sort.

So yeah, I think there's a balance to be struck there. And I think decision-makers aren't always going to get it exactly right.

Indeed. It is an interesting debate to have for sure.

Should rock climbing be restricted? Maybe not - but that argument has to be made on the basis of rock climbing, alone. Not as some idiotic proxy for the lockdown in general. It is the classic fallacy of moving from the specific to the general.

Should hiking trails be shut down? Hell if I know. I can imagine plenty that would be perfectly fine to be open. I can also think of plenty where the hikers are very close to one another, and the trails are extremely crowded, and when we didn't really know how easily the virus transmistted, reasonable arguments could be made about whey they ought to be shut down.

But these insanely specific examples with the implicit demand that they be extended to the general case, is just bullshit. It betrays that there isn't really an honest argument being made.

Look at this picture of the parking lot fromthe top of this climbing rock! It so ridiculous that this might be restricted, and this PROVES that my argument that lockdowns in general are bullshit were totally correct!

[Admiral Yi]

You guys can say I jumped the shark on talking about shills and self important politicians, but these decisions aren't based on preventing covid. They are financial and political. It probably won't be too hard to find republican politicians that complained about BLM protests and covid spread, or democratic ones that were cool with BLM but criticized lockdown protests.

Oh well

[Jacob]

Indeed. It is an interesting debate to have for sure.

Should rock climbing be restricted? Maybe not - but that argument has to be made on the basis of rock climbing, alone. Not as some idiotic proxy for the lockdown in general. It is the classic fallacy of moving from the specific to the general.

Should hiking trails be shut down? Hell if I know. I can imagine plenty that would be perfectly fine to be open. I can also think of plenty where the hikers are very close to one another, and the trails are extremely crowded, and when we didn't really know how easily the virus transmistted, reasonable arguments could be made about whey they ought to be shut down.

Yeah. Reasonable people can reasonably differ on where exactly the line should be drawn, and our knowledge changed over time as well. Ideally the discussion is being had calmly and professionally, and without heavy politicizing influencing the decision-making...

But these insanely specific examples with the implicit demand that they be extended to the general case, is just bullshit. It betrays that there isn't really an honest argument being made.

Look at this picture of the parking lot fromthe top of this climbing rock! It so ridiculous that this might be restricted, and this PROVES that my argument that lockdowns in general are bullshit were totally correct!

Agreed.

[alfred russel]

Rather it's based on your statement about politicians wanting to control people.  That's verging right into QAnon/hoaxer/Karen territory.

Apparently if you are visiting Nevada, the brothels are closed but massage and spa parlors are open. That screams politics and general disfavor of brothels rather than a science based assessment.

[Eddie Teach]

Does your fiancee know you looked into that? 

[Admiral Yi]

Rather it's based on your statement about politicians wanting to control people.  That's verging right into QAnon/hoaxer/Karen territory.

Apparently if you are visiting Nevada, the brothels are closed but massage and spa parlors are open. That screams politics and general disfavor of brothels rather than a science based assessment.

Let's go back to the starting point.

This is a national emergency, I don't know why so many pretend it isn't.

Because it isn't that bad and it is transparently being used to control behaviors by shrills and self important politicians.

So if I follow your line of reasoning, your saying the fact that brothels are closed and casinos open in Nevada shows that covid is not a national emergency?

I will admit that I misread that post first time around.  I thought you were saying *all* restrictions were a result of politicians wanting to control. 

But as a minor digression on that particular point, it doesn't make a lot of sense to view the decision to close brothels as motivated by the desire to control, if by desire to control you mean the church lady/prohibitionist/outlaw sinful acts sense.  If state politicians thought brothels were sinful they could outlaw brothels.

[alfred russel]

Does your fiancee know you looked into that? 

I didn't. I just googled an article of what was open and closed in Nevada. Besides my climbing buddy, and at grocery stores, I'm not sure I got within 6 feet of another person the whole trip once we left the airport.

[alfred russel]

Rather it's based on your statement about politicians wanting to control people.  That's verging right into QAnon/hoaxer/Karen territory.

Apparently if you are visiting Nevada, the brothels are closed but massage and spa parlors are open. That screams politics and general disfavor of brothels rather than a science based assessment.

Let's go back to the starting point.

This is a national emergency, I don't know why so many pretend it isn't.

Because it isn't that bad and it is transparently being used to control behaviors by shrills and self important politicians.

So if I follow your line of reasoning, your saying the fact that brothels are closed and casinos open in Nevada shows that covid is not a national emergency?

I will admit that I misread that post first time around.  I thought you were saying *all* restrictions were a result of politicians wanting to control. 

But as a minor digression on that particular point, it doesn't make a lot of sense to view the decision to close brothels as motivated by the desire to control, if by desire to control you mean the church lady/prohibitionist/outlaw sinful acts sense.  If state politicians thought brothels were sinful they could outlaw brothels.

I wasn't disputing this as a national emergency, I agree that it is, I was explaining to Raz why so many act as though it isn't. To use another tortured analogy (perhaps my worst ever), if you recommend people having a heart attack to take beta blockers and cut off their leg, they may have better outcomes following your advice than ignoring it. But cutting off the leg is so transparently dumb they may stop listening to you altogether.

It isn't hard to see why the brothels are closed. They are not significant financial contributors to the Nevada economy, they are "wild and lawless places" in the public perception, and in the era of covid if they were open they would put at risk the entire enterprise of reopening casinos, bars and shows which are vital to the economy. This may also get some support for those that want them closed regardless. So shutting them down is really about political prioritization versus any scientific risk assessment.

The same reason casinos reopened with less space restrictions than churches. The people implementing the political decisions probably don't hate religion / want to really shut churches down: but for a variety of reasons casinos were favored.

Or in a more extreme example why indoor climbing gyms in Georgia reopened before the main outdoor climbing destination.

[Admiral Yi]

A little schizo Fredo.

If you agree with the reasoning of people who don't think it's a national emergency, don't you also have to think it's not a national emergency?

Maybe I'm missing something. 

[alfred russel]

Look at this picture of the parking lot fromthe top of this climbing rock! It so ridiculous that this might be restricted, and this PROVES that my argument that lockdowns in general are bullshit were totally correct!

That isn't a fair summary of anything I've been saying.

There are many climbers in Las Vegas. There was a shut down of where I was climbing. Those climbers were not allowed to drive out of the city with millions of people to visit an area that is extremely socially distanced post lockdown. Because they didn't leave the city to climb, they presumably were using the same overcrowded urban spaces as a couple million other residents of Las Vegas.

There are much more crowded climbing and hiking and camping areas of course. There is an argument to controlling access to some of those points (though I doubt many are more crowded than the indoor gyms that are now open). But look at the picture of the desert! You have a massive amount of open space, and a relatively densely populated space of the city. Effectively confining everyone to that city and not using the empty space is not only counterproductive in terms of people's well being, it is counter productive to controlling covid's spread.

[alfred russel]

A little schizo Fredo.

If you agree with the reasoning of people who don't think it's a national emergency, don't you also have to think it's not a national emergency?

Maybe I'm missing something.

I honestly feel like 100% of people think I'm evil on covid.

There are places out in the sticks where I am like the only person in the establishment that is wearing a mask. I tell people in Atlanta/at work what I've been doing and they think I'm a covid denier (I've learned to keep my mouth shut - it is probably analogous to languish in attitude).

My points I was making back in March / April: 1) the lockdowns are going too far, and 2) are not sustainable. 3) Many people are going to respond by rejecting reasonable covid advice. 4) that is bad because covid is real (in addition to excessive lockdowns making life suck more than needed).

I was responding to raz about why people think 3, which is because of 1 and 2.

But while I agree with 1 and 2, I still think 4.