Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[Razgovory]

garbon, there are lots of place where they just aren't many black people.  I'm not talking about "white enclaves" I'm talking about vast regions.  Like Idaho or Maine.

[PDH]

I think the "bad words" is actually a good thing as quite obviously there has been this simmering undercurrent of racism among people, the obvious systemic racism of institutions, and a general wallpapering over problems with a "well it's all fixed now" attitudes.

This gets the latent problem into the open, shows the intolerance that has been there, and the idiocy of the arguments.  It is not about finding good words to sooth the people so they realize the error of their ways, it is about pointing out that there is still a very strong, vicious, and hateful racism ingrained in the society that exists at the very roots.

How do we solve this?  Fuck if I know.

[garbon]

garbon, there are lots of place where they just aren't many black people.  I'm not talking about "white enclaves" I'm talking about vast regions.  Like Idaho or Maine.

And now let's think about why that's the case.

[Razgovory]

I think the "bad words" is actually a good thing as quite obviously there has been this simmering undercurrent of racism among people, the obvious systemic racism of institutions, and a general wallpapering over problems with a "well it's all fixed now" attitudes.

This gets the latent problem into the open, shows the intolerance that has been there, and the idiocy of the arguments.  It is not about finding good words to sooth the people so they realize the error of their ways, it is about pointing out that there is still a very strong, vicious, and hateful racism ingrained in the society that exists at the very roots.

How do we solve this?  Fuck if I know.

I would focus on the systemic racism.  Make the argument that racist systems cause non-racist people to racist things without fulling understanding it.  While simplistic and not entirely true it is true enough to be helpful.  The point is to improve the lives of black people, if that means you need to off load guilt to an impersonal system to accomplish that, then that is the road you should take.

[Razgovory]

garbon, there are lots of place where they just aren't many black people.  I'm not talking about "white enclaves" I'm talking about vast regions.  Like Idaho or Maine.

And now let's think about why that's the case.

Cause these places didn't have the large number of industrial jobs that attracted black workers in the Great Migration.

[Valmy]

You mean those best words that no one seems to be able to locate?

I don't know. You have proposed better options yourself. Are we to conclude that since this term may not be very effective there are no effective terms or rhetoric?

What terms did I propose?

I think my point (and a few others) is that term is probably not as big of a deal as purported. Those turned off by it or making angry memes were probably not going to be activated.

Black tax I thought you said?

But I basically agree it is not a huge deal. Focus on the issues and I think most people will buy in. Terms like White Privilege are not ideal but they probably mostly just stir up the Twitterati and the like.

[grumbler]

We could use the term "systemic racism" rather than "white privilege."  That's something that is an active evil, not just a byproduct of an active evil.

Better to focus on the disease than the symptom, IMO.

[merithyn]

Trevor Noah once said that in South Africa they call it "black tax", not "white privilege", precisely because telling a poor white person that they have "white privilege" is cruel, lacking in empathy, and is not productive in getting them to see your point.

I like this. I think going forward, that's how I'll refer to it.

[crazy canuck]

We could use the term "systemic racism" rather than "white privilege."  That's something that is an active evil, not just a byproduct of an active evil.

Better to focus on the disease than the symptom, IMO.

Everybody can be against systemic racism.  The folks who are resistant to using the term white privilege may even think they are the ones that need protecting.

A good bland way of ignoring the there is a white skinned group that has the privilege.

[grumbler]

I love the way the extremists work so hard to avoid terms that don't polarize.  They've gotta be fighting evil, not seeking consensus on what's good.

[Jacob]

I would focus on the systemic racism.  Make the argument that racist systems cause non-racist people to racist things without fulling understanding it.  While simplistic and not entirely true it is true enough to be helpful.  The point is to improve the lives of black people, if that means you need to off load guilt to an impersonal system to accomplish that, then that is the road you should take.

"Systemic racism" gets just as bad a "this is not the right term, choose your words more carefully treatment" as "white privilige" does. It gets the whole "I'm not a racist" response, followed by "you say the system is racist, but I know someone in the system and they're not racist," followed by "the system is messed up for everyone" and/ or "how do you know the system was picking on you, if Black people only followed police instructions/ didn't act Black/ didn't sell drugs/ whatever there wouldn't be a problem" line.

The issue is not the term. The issue is that people who prefer living in a world where white privilege is entrenched use every rhetorical trick in the book to dissemble, and other people fall for it. But no matter what terms are employed, the regressive right will mount a massive assault on it to make it anathema.

It is not helped by some lefty diehards obnoxiously wielding the term as a bludgeon, but the core problem is that people don't want to consider the content of the term.

[Jacob]

The fundamental problem is that it's tough to convince someone that their life would be worse if they weren't white while their life sucks.  I've got no solution for that, although I think that working on universal programs might help somewhat.

Similarly, it is fundamentally tough to convince a significant number of people who are well off that they're well off because they had the good sense to be born to white parents who are similarly well off rather than because they're inherently gifted.

[Jacob]

We could use the term "systemic racism" rather than "white privilege."  That's something that is an active evil, not just a byproduct of an active evil.

Better to focus on the disease than the symptom, IMO.

I'm totally down for switching terms to try to reach and persuade a wider audience. I do, however, make the prediction that if we make "systemic racism" the main term used to discuss the issue then "systemic racism" will be declared a poor term unfit for purpose by the usual suspects in short order.

[garbon]

We could use the term "systemic racism" rather than "white privilege."  That's something that is an active evil, not just a byproduct of an active evil.

Better to focus on the disease than the symptom, IMO.

I'm totally down for switching terms to try to reach and persuade a wider audience. I do, however, make the prediction that if we make "systemic racism" the main term used to discuss the issue then "systemic racism" will be declared a poor term unfit for purpose by the usual suspects in short order.

We don't even have to guess as we already know it is seen as a left myth in America.

[Jacob]

I mean, just as a thought exercise can we think of a widely used term to describe a situation of significant social inequality (that is current in the US) that is generally accepted as being apt and appropriate across the spectrum? In particular, I'm interested in the kind of well meaning people that Raz and Yi are concerned about, that may be willing to listen if we find the right way to talk to them.

"Toxic masculinity" is definitely is not accepted. "White privilige" certainly isn't and neither is "male privilige". In my experience "systemic racism" isn't accepted either, but maybe it is? Or maybe it's not used widely at the moment? How about "homophobia" - is that accepted as a term that describes a real and pervasive phenomena by the audience we're theoretically trying to reach by finding an alternative to "white privilige"? "Black Lives Matter" certainly isn't accepted across the political spectrum, at least in my observation.

My hypothesis is that the people who reject the term "white privilige" are not doing so because they're unable to understand what the term means. Nor is it, I believe, because they're necessarily particularly racist. Rather, I think it's because the people who are not explicitly racist are immersed in media and propaganda designed to effectively tarnish any of those terms and render them toxic.

So IMO, there is value in finding alternate terms and modes of explanation - that are not yet tarnished - to try to reach the people in the middle who are reachable. That's a battle that's worth fighting, though it's hard (precisely because the terms get attacked the moment they gain any currency). However I don't think there's much to be gained from endlessly dissecting the nuance of why any given term is just not appropriate because the answer is the same - the moment a term describing a problem of social inequality/ a proposed solution to social inequality/ or a movement to counter that social inequality there is a massive deployment of social and traditional media to load the term down with baggage and drown it.