Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[garbon]

"Minority tax" works in the sense that it is something we want to get rid of, as opposed to the idea that we don't want anyone to have what the "whites" have.  I think that, in fact, we would want everyone in the world to have the "white privilege" of good schools, lack of prejudice against them, economic opportunity, etc.

Isn't that 1) going to make people think about money and 2) leave it open for the response to be, yeah but everyone faces problems?

'White privilige' is not the only term used for this topic and I'd think that actually focusing on minority disadvantages is more the norm and certainly the main way you would see in say news articles.  That doesn't seem to be sufficient though to get everyone on the same page.

[Razgovory]

Not everyone went to Stanford, garbon.

[garbon]

Not everyone went to Stanford, garbon.

I don't think using a search engine was a required course at Stanford.

I agree, of course, that not everyone is as curious, but you should also recognize that it can get tedious as well as heartbreaking for minorities to have to repeatedly explain how their world works. At some points in time, it is like - you are the igorant one, can't you do the work to educate yourself?

[Malthus]

It's one of two basic problems of Progressives.

Letting the perfect be the enemy of the good is one. Assuming that everyone who doesn't already agree with their positions are irredeemable, where those positions are articulated through slogans and buzzwords, is another.

It is certainly better than the twin problems of the American right, which are that they have been taken over by the batshit crazy and/or actively evil.

What's wrong with "whites privilege" as a term? It is this: a privilege is usually thought of something good, though undeserved, or certainly unearned. The subtext appears to be that it is something you wish to take away from the undeserving, rather than a fair level playing field you want to give to everyone. The natural reaction on the part of the owners of the "privilege" is "so, you want to take something away from me? Make my life actively harder than it is now? And I deserve that because I did not earn what I currently have? And my Asian friend isn't subject to this?"

Yet that is not the goal at all. It does not take anything away from a white person if (say) a black person is *not* harassed by the cops, or if a black person dies *not* spend extra time in jail. Maybe in some ways it is a tangential advantage (if a white person is competing for a job he or she may get it instead of a better qualified black person). But it is pretty clear if such advantages were explained, being stripped of them would arouse the same resistance.

The term is intended to describe something every reasonable person agrees is a problem, but does do in a way that seems designed to arouse resistance and defensiveness on the part of the people who must be convinced of its validity in order to advance the agreed policy goal (a society in which one's race is not a disadvantage).

[Oexmelin]

Criticism about the perfect being the enemy of the good would similarly apply to people who would rather have the perfectly comfortable word than the actual fight.

I mean at this point, the Conservative propaganda machine is going to twist and villify any word being used and they are not motivated by a desire for appropriate semantics. They would find discrimination, disadvantage, etc. objectionable too. It was not tool long ago that a major conservative talking point was precisely that civil rights were achieved, and it was time to move on. A talking point backed by the actual dismantling of  anti-discriminatory legal architecture.

A lot of my activist friends, especially within Black communities, are just fed up at this point with demands that different words be used, because it is neither clear that those making those demands are willing to fight for the cause in meaningful ways, or would be if the words used were different; nor is it clear that changing words would actually achieve what it would. You and I have the great privilege - and I am sure you'd not object of labelling it this way - of finding work, enjoyment, and time in discussing the meaning of words in great detail. But their point to me was: spend at a minimum as much time talking about racial justice as you would arguing about the proper label to use. 

[Valmy]

Criticism about the perfect being the enemy of the good would similarly apply to people who would rather have the perfectly comfortable word than the actual fight.

I believe I started this conversation saying that while the word sucks it is more pressing to address the actual issues.

After all we are addressing a meme, propaganda really meant to convince others that the right wing views are correct, not an actual issue. If we are going to have a political fight though, a battle of propaganda, having the best words would help. Just saying.

[Razgovory]

Not everyone went to Stanford, garbon.

I don't think using a search engine was a required course at Stanford.

I agree, of course, that not everyone is as curious, but you should also recognize that it can get tedious as well as heartbreaking for minorities to have to repeatedly explain how their world works. At some points in time, it is like - you are the igorant one, can't you do the work to educate yourself?

No, most people don't go out of their way to understand other people's problems let alone try to do something about them.  You want to make people care about your problems, you need to go tell them.  In fact, it helps to learn what their problems are as well.

[garbon]

Not everyone went to Stanford, garbon.

I don't think using a search engine was a required course at Stanford.

I agree, of course, that not everyone is as curious, but you should also recognize that it can get tedious as well as heartbreaking for minorities to have to repeatedly explain how their world works. At some points in time, it is like - you are the igorant one, can't you do the work to educate yourself?

No, most people don't go out of their way to understand other people's problems let alone try to do something about them.  You want to make people care about your problems, you need to go tell them.  In fact, it helps to learn what their problems are as well.

Then let me say this simply - How the fuck could a grown adult in America today not be aware of problems facing their fellow Americans? I can totally get you might not grasp the tight countors of the issues, but to be ignorant of racism and its effects on society - at best you are being willfully blind and ignoring that which doesn't directly impact you.  And oddly enough that's what white privilege describes

To then be a person who ignores that racism is an issue, because it doesn't directly affect you, and then play pedantic games about how a term used by some people when agitating for rights makes you feel uncomfortable? Some people just can't be reached.

Also, I hope that's not the case that most people don't bother to learn about other people's problems. What a sad, cynical world.

[garbon]

Criticism about the perfect being the enemy of the good would similarly apply to people who would rather have the perfectly comfortable word than the actual fight.

I believe I started this conversation saying that while the word sucks it is more pressing to address the actual issues.

After all we are addressing a meme, propaganda really meant to convince others that the right wing views are correct, not an actual issue. If we are going to have a political fight though, a battle of propaganda, having the best words would help. Just saying.

You mean those best words that no one seems to be able to locate?

[Oexmelin]

o address the actual issues.
After all we are addressing a meme, propaganda really meant to convince others that the right wing views are correct, not an actual issue. If we are going to have a political fight though, a battle of propaganda, having the best words would help. Just saying.

I actually disagree: I don't think the "best words" are always the more inocuous ones. As garbon has said, Republicans have not done a great deal of effort carefully curating their words to the delicate sensibility of centrists. Continuously rehashing how privilege is a terrible word (unsurprisingly, I don't think it is) is in fact yielding the ground to a conservative agenda. It may be that the Democratic coalition requires such degree of semantic artistry, carefully avoiding any word that would give a hint of a progressive agenda, whereas Republicans can rely in built-in institutional failures to remain in power, in which case, maybe the Democrats need a fucking clue and stay disciplined about messaging.   

[Razgovory]

We live in a fairly segregated society, garbon.  Do you spend much time learning about other people's problems?

[crazy canuck]

So where and how would you explain white privilege to these people?

I think there has been enough explanation.

And you wonder why there is so much resistance to the Idea.

No, I don't wonder.  I have a pretty good idea why there is so much resistance to accepting the truth that white privilege exists.

Yeah, calling someone racist doesn't exactly help either.

I think it unlikely that racists don't understand that white privilege exists.

[garbon]

We live in a fairly segregated society, garbon.

It is on the news a lot and was very much on the news last year.  Maybe they should have spent less time saying Blue Lives Matter and looked a little into what was actually being discussed?

Also, personally I'm not sure I know much about that. My family has always had a wide range of political, socioeconomic, gender, sexuality and racial backgrounds. I suppose my friends have more similar socioeconomic statuses but still from a wide array of backgrounds and countries.  Now, I recognize that isn't true of everyone but if you are white in an all white enclave and have made no relationships with non-white people, you gotta look at yourself.

Do you spend much time learning about other people's problems?

Yes, I would say so. I try to make an effort to educate myself about different points of view, different struggles and hardships that people face that are so alien to my own privileged existence.

[Valmy]

You mean those best words that no one seems to be able to locate?

I don't know. You have proposed better options yourself. Are we to conclude that since this term may not be very effective there are no effective terms or rhetoric?

In any case I was just lamenting this situation. I mean the horse is so far out of the barn now that it is just an intellectual exercise.

[garbon]

You mean those best words that no one seems to be able to locate?

I don't know. You have proposed better options yourself. Are we to conclude that since this term may not be very effective there are no effective terms or rhetoric?

What terms did I propose?

I think my point (and a few others) is that term is probably not as big of a deal as purported. Those turned off by it or making angry memes were probably not going to be activated.