Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[Josquius]

But then you are talking an overhaul of our capitalist system.

I don't see how. Its kind of civilization 101; connect more people, increase education, etc... and everyone profits.

Giving 'basic respect and equality' is not going to change much of the average black person. After all, people can be polite and still oppress you.

Not what I meant.
Cracking down on unfair police treatment, making efforts to actively engage with minority communities to open up opportunities to them, etc... is part of basic respect and equality to me, not just being polite. Equality comes with the end point, not the start.

So groups that were subsumed into whiteness (well maybe not the brown gays who also still face racial discrimination...)?

Yes, which is kind of where we should be heading with other minorities.
Less "subsumed into whiteness" and more "subsumed into being one of the 'normal' people".

I can't speak for the Irish or Catholics, but gay people definitely have talked ad nauseum about the privileges straight couples were afforded. Gay rights has been in large part about making sure straight people weren't the only ones to have state sanctioned marries.

Gay marriage is probably a bad example in hindsight. I remember with gay marriage the talk of 'marriage equality' always made my eyes roll a bit. The way I saw it, it wasn't about giving gay people equal rights to straight people; they already had that in the right to marry someone of the opposite gender, for all the good possession of this right did them.
Rather gay marriage was about an expansion of rights for everyone and enhancing everyone's freedom. Putting it in terms of simple equality was under-selling it. As effective as this strategy was politically.

I'll ask again, what is the ideal phrasing that will change hearts and minds?

If I knew The Answer (tm) I'd be Emperor of Europe by now :p

[The Minsky Moment]

"White privilege" is a great term to discuss the concept with people who accept it exists (not to mention how great to show you understand it), but really not good at convincing others. And convincing others matters.

In this scenario who are the others and what are we trying to convince them of?

[Berkut]

"White privilege" is a great term to discuss the concept with people who accept it exists (not to mention how great to show you understand it), but really not good at convincing others. And convincing others matters.

In this scenario who are the others and what are we trying to convince them of?

People who mostly don't spend much time thinking about this either way, other than what they casually see on their FB feed or hear about from friends.

[Razgovory]

dumbing down the concept so it is palatable should not be a goal.

That's not a goal, but a way to remove white privilege. White people make up the majority of the population and they control most of the wealth.  The only way to do that is to convince them to it up.  In politics it helps to not insult people you are trying to convince.  10% of the population can't take something from 70% of the population by force.

[crazy canuck]

dumbing down the concept so it is palatable should not be a goal.

That's not a goal, but a way to remove white privilege. White people make up the majority of the population and they control most of the wealth.  The only way to do that is to convince them to it up.  In politics it helps to not insult people you are trying to convince.  10% of the population can't take something from 70% of the population by force.

Calling something what is, is not taking something by force.  It is being honest.  I recognize it is a truth that a lot of white people are not comfortable with.  Making up a different truth that they feel more comfortable with is less than honest.

[Razgovory]

dumbing down the concept so it is palatable should not be a goal.

That's not a goal, but a way to remove white privilege. White people make up the majority of the population and they control most of the wealth.  The only way to do that is to convince them to it up.  In politics it helps to not insult people you are trying to convince.  10% of the population can't take something from 70% of the population by force.

Calling something what is, is not taking something by force.  It is being honest.  I recognize it is a truth that a lot of white people are not comfortable with.  Making up a different truth that they feel more comfortable with is less than honest.

Okay CC.  Let's say you are out canvassing.  You come to a trailer park, you knock at the door and tell the people inside how privilege they are and thus undeserving of the wealth they have.  What is the next step in your argument?

[crazy canuck]

dumbing down the concept so it is palatable should not be a goal.

That's not a goal, but a way to remove white privilege. White people make up the majority of the population and they control most of the wealth.  The only way to do that is to convince them to it up.  In politics it helps to not insult people you are trying to convince.  10% of the population can't take something from 70% of the population by force.

Calling something what is, is not taking something by force.  It is being honest.  I recognize it is a truth that a lot of white people are not comfortable with.  Making up a different truth that they feel more comfortable with is less than honest.

Okay CC.  Let's say you are out canvassing.  You come to a trailer park, you knock at the door and tell the people inside how privilege they are and thus undeserving of the wealth they have.  What is the next step in your argument?

You wouldn't do that for two reasons.  First, the purpose of canvassing is not to explain white privilege.  Second, that is not what white privilege means.

[Valmy]

If the meaning is not obvious by the words being used, for a wide-ranging social issue especially, then the words are not the right ones to use. This is not some technical lingo, it is supposed to help address political and social problems.

[Razgovory]

dumbing down the concept so it is palatable should not be a goal.

That's not a goal, but a way to remove white privilege. White people make up the majority of the population and they control most of the wealth.  The only way to do that is to convince them to it up.  In politics it helps to not insult people you are trying to convince.  10% of the population can't take something from 70% of the population by force.

Calling something what is, is not taking something by force.  It is being honest.  I recognize it is a truth that a lot of white people are not comfortable with.  Making up a different truth that they feel more comfortable with is less than honest.

Okay CC.  Let's say you are out canvassing.  You come to a trailer park, you knock at the door and tell the people inside how privilege they are and thus undeserving of the wealth they have.  What is the next step in your argument?

You wouldn't do that for two reasons.  First, the purpose of canvassing is not to explain white privilege.  Second, that is not what white privilege means.

So where and how would you explain white privilege to these people?

[The Minsky Moment]

"White privilege" is a great term to discuss the concept with people who accept it exists (not to mention how great to show you understand it), but really not good at convincing others. And convincing others matters.

In this scenario who are the others and what are we trying to convince them of?

People who mostly don't spend much time thinking about this either way, other than what they casually see on their FB feed or hear about from friends.

This being racial disparities in America?
And what specifically are we trying to convince them of?

One can argue that "privilege" is the wrong word to use but then what is the right word and how does it achieve the goal?

I view this as categorically different from defund the police.  The problem with "defund the police" is not just that it is political poison - although that admittedly is a problem.  The problem is that it is objectively a terrible idea and it is an statement that we as a society are incapable of operating functional institutions like police forces. It should be re-fund and reform the police, not defund.  Better police, not fewer and worse.

"White privilege" is not in the same category - it is not a policy proposal but a statement of fact about the world. In America it is more advantageous to be white than black.  That is a undeniable fact. And to have a categorical benefit or advantage is the very definition of privilege. So to argue against the usage of the term, is to argue that in order to reach through to people, the reality has to be sugar-coated in some way to make it more palatable to hear.  That's a possible argument to make but it requires an understanding of: (1) what group or groups one is trying to reach with the softly, softly approach, (2) what alternative approach to use and how effective it will be. and (3) what effectiveness may be lost by using a less direct approach.

[crazy canuck]

So where and how would you explain white privilege to these people?

I think there has been enough explanation.

[Razgovory]

So where and how would you explain white privilege to these people?

I think there has been enough explanation.

And you wonder why there is so much resistance to the Idea.

[crazy canuck]

So where and how would you explain white privilege to these people?

I think there has been enough explanation.

And you wonder why there is so much resistance to the Idea.

No, I don't wonder.  I have a pretty good idea why there is so much resistance to accepting the truth that white privilege exists.

[Jacob]

I'm totally in favour of using terms other than "white privilige" when talking to people who bristle at the term. Not, mind you, at all times or in the broader society wide conversation. But I'm happy to use other terms on an individual, case-by-case basis when I know who I'm talking to, have a sense of what they're like, and - potentially also - when there's a specific reason to have that conversation.

So yeah - tactically there's a reason to avoid the term "white privilige" on occasion, but it's a real thing, it is an apt term, and I don't see a compelling reason to abandon the term because some people prefer not to understand it.

[Admiral Yi]

To me the term suggests that every white person is born into a cushier life than every black person, which is demonstrably false.