Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[Admiral Yi]

If the alternative is to win the popular vote and lose the electoral college then I know where to put my money.

We're not playing Let's Make A Deal Raz.  You don't get to pick your outcome.

[Oexmelin]

What's your solution, Yi?

[Admiral Yi]

Be the Grown Up Party.  Be The Responsible Adult Party.

[Oexmelin]

What does that mean?

[Razgovory]

So instead of concluding that the author of the article and maybe his editor hated you, you decided a third of the country hated you. That's not healthy.

No one has ever called me healthy.  I've seen so many of the local conservatives have "liked" III% militia stuff on their face book.  So many thought that the reasonable response to protesters on the road is to run them down.  The NRA openly talks about the need to kill fellow citizens if they don't get their way.  The President declares people he doesn't like "Treasonous" and "enemies of the people".  There is no loyal opposition, there is only people paid off by the Arch-Jew Soros.  More and more we see people who believe the QAnon conspiracy theory, where the President will suspend the Constitution and murder his enemies.  They see this as a positive development.

[Valmy]

Quite frankly, the idea that Hilary using "deplorable" is somehow a terrible breach of civility that led to Donald Trump, the embodiment of restraint and civility, to be elected - tells me that, once again, the terms of the debate are dictated by Republicans capable of weaponizing every Democratic breach of political norms, while normalizing every Republican breach.

A similar line sunk Romney in 2012. Trump is an almost unique force. Thinking that the rules that apply to him apply to everybody is a fools notion. Ted Cruz could not get away with what Trump can. I am not sure why but eventually it will catch up to Trump in 2020, I believe that.

Trying to out-Trump Trump will not work. You have to be the anti-Trump. And frankly that is how elections usually work anyway.

[Oexmelin]

That presumes Trump is an anomaly, and that normality will return. I do not share that assessment. And both you and yo seem to continue to conflate many things in "out-Trumping".

[Valmy]

That presumes Trump is an anomaly, and that normality will return. I do not share that assessment. And both you and yo seem to continue to conflate many things in "out-Trumping".

Trump is an anomaly. That is all I was presuming. I have already spoken on how unspoken and unwritten norms are being overturned and those are not easily restored, if that is even a possibility.

If the strategy is not to react from Trump by taking a page out of his book and attempt to be Trump, then perhaps I do not understand what is meant by no longer being civil which is distinct from what has already gone on. Perhaps I simply do not understand what things we are talking about.

[The Minsky Moment]

That presumes Trump is an anomaly, and that normality will return.

That's the $100,000 question.

There are certain values associated with America. Core among them are the "middle class" bourgeois virtues of probity, lawfulness, modesty, temperance and prudence.  The other stem is the mythic and heroic American virtues, often embodied by Western heroes - the virtues of quiet courage, stoic adherance to duty and honor, "speaking softly and carrying a big stick."  These virtues aren't partisan, but the Republican Party has traditionally identified itself closely with them ever since its formation.

In the Hollywood portrayals, these two sets of virtues were embodied by characters played by Jimmy Stewart and Gary Cooper, respectively. The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance becomes a Senator, and almost certainly a Republican one.  As it happens Stewart and Cooper were both staunch Republicans in real life.  Leading Republican politicians in the modern era from Ike to Reagan, Dole to McCain all celebrated and attempted to embody those virtues; even Nixon could effect stoic resignation.  They did so not only out of personal conviction, but because they understood it was expected, even necessary, to succeed politically.

Trump is a walking, talking affront to these values.  He is immodest to an extreme, lacks emotional control, imprudent, contemptuous of all rules that would restrain him, he mocks traditional notions of honor ("I like people who aren't captured), he is a loudmouth, and a bully, but he acts weakly in the presence of other "strongmen".

And yet this rejection and contradiction of traditional American virtues not only has not hurt Trump but seemingly has helped him. The question is whether this is an anomolous episode or reflects a broader shift in values. The traditional values were perhaps often observed in the breach. They did not necessarily incorporate other important virtues like commitments to justice, fairness, or broader social solidarity. But they are truly virtues and they did provide an ethical center and restraint on politics. The pre-Trump GOP could claim with some legitimacy to reflect broader national values - the present day GOP is increasingly unmoored from principle. It is becoming a Nietzschean party, nothing is left other than the Will to Power.  If that is truly the terminal point, it will not end well for America.

[garbon]

That presumes Trump is an anomaly, and that normality will return. I do not share that assessment. And both you and yo seem to continue to conflate many things in "out-Trumping".

Trump is an anomaly. That is all I was presuming. I have already spoken on how unspoken and unwritten norms are being overturned and those are not easily restored, if that is even a possibility.

If the strategy is not to react from Trump by taking a page out of his book and attempt to be Trump, then perhaps I do not understand what is meant by no longer being civil which is distinct from what has already gone on. Perhaps I simply do not understand what things we are talking about.

Clearly as I don't think anyone was calling for Dems to emulate Trump, least of all Hillary Clinton..

[Admiral Yi]

That presumes Trump is an anomaly, and that normality will return.

That's the $100,000 question.

There are certain values associated with America. Core among them are the "middle class" bourgeois virtues of probity, lawfulness, modesty, temperance and prudence.  The other stem is the mythic and heroic American virtues, often embodied by Western heroes - the virtues of quiet courage, stoic adherance to duty and honor, "speaking softly and carrying a big stick."  These virtues aren't partisan, but the Republican Party has traditionally identified itself closely with them ever since its formation.

In the Hollywood portrayals, these two sets of virtues were embodied by characters played by Jimmy Stewart and Gary Cooper, respectively. The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance becomes a Senator, and almost certainly a Republican one.  As it happens Stewart and Cooper were both staunch Republicans in real life.  Leading Republican politicians in the modern era from Ike to Reagan, Dole to McCain all celebrated and attempted to embody those virtues; even Nixon could effect stoic resignation.  They did so not only out of personal conviction, but because they understood it was expected, even necessary, to succeed politically.

Trump is a walking, talking affront to these values.  He is immodest to an extreme, lacks emotional control, imprudent, contemptuous of all rules that would restrain him, he mocks traditional notions of honor ("I like people who aren't captured), he is a loudmouth, and a bully, but he acts weakly in the presence of other "strongmen".

And yet this rejection and contradiction of traditional American virtues not only has not hurt Trump but seemingly has helped him. The question is whether this is an anomolous episode or reflects a broader shift in values. The traditional values were perhaps often observed in the breach. They did not necessarily incorporate other important virtues like commitments to justice, fairness, or broader social solidarity. But they are truly virtues and they did provide an ethical center and restraint on politics. The pre-Trump GOP could claim with some legitimacy to reflect broader national values - the present day GOP is increasingly unmoored from principle. It is becoming a Nietzschean party, nothing is left other than the Will to Power.  If that is truly the terminal point, it will not end well for America.

It's the apex of white trash power.

[Tamas]

I know you guys dismiss this stuff usually as irrelevant but Hungary was going through the exact same shit before 2010.

The left struggled as the right  (just one party, Fidesz at that point) removed all standards and barriers. The slightest slight by a leftist politican/person was made into a massive insult on general human dignity by the right and their followers who were very happy to play along, all the while no scandal form Fidesz could be big enough to register a reaction in their voter base. Seemed like they kept drawing people and once somebody committed to the tribe they would not leave.

I am not sure how the fight would have panned out, because the 2008 crisis came along and destroyed all hopes the then-governing left had. The right then proceeded to apply the same modus operandi to governing, and you have a general idea of where that has led after 8 years.

[Valmy]

Clearly as I don't think anyone was calling for Dems to emulate Trump, least of all Hillary Clinton..

Clearly. Hence why I was saying so. I am not sure what is being called for.

If the idea is to stop being nice, well I don't think we are being nice. We just do not have the political power to really be more than a pain in the ass....yet.

[DGuller]

Be the Grown Up Party.  Be The Responsible Adult Party.

How did that work for the Democrats so far?

[crazy canuck]

Be the Grown Up Party.  Be The Responsible Adult Party.

How did that work for the Democrats so far?

Yeah,

I am not sure what Yi means by the Grown up Party, but the mantra of when they go low we go high didn't exactly work out too well.