Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[Oexmelin]

How is that an imbalance of power, collective or otherwise?  I would describe that as a difference of opinion.

To take an example from the other thread: are women making a fuss out of a forced kiss a difference of opinion?

The problem with things being only matters of opinion is that it ignores that some opinions are backed with considerable more force than others. People who want to show how some majority opinions that appear neutral, are in fact reinforcing certain undesirable behavior. So, while "not all white people" are this, or that, or "not all men" are this or that, if some behavior, and opinions held in a very reasonable manner, are collectively enforced, even if through no ill will of one's own.

[Admiral Yi]

What do you mean by enforced?

And I inferred the meaning, but your final sentence is missing the independent clause.

[Malthus]

How is that an imbalance of power, collective or otherwise?  I would describe that as a difference of opinion.

To take an example from the other thread: are women making a fuss out of a forced kiss a difference of opinion?

The problem with things being only matters of opinion is that it ignores that some opinions are backed with considerable more force than others. People who want to show how some majority opinions that appear neutral, are in fact reinforcing certain undesirable behavior. So, while "not all white people" are this, or that, or "not all men" are this or that, if some behavior, and opinions held in a very reasonable manner, are collectively enforced, even if through no ill will of one's own.

If stereotyping behaviour is the accepted norm, who is harmed most by it? Those with power, or those without?

The problem with "punching up" is that allowing or even encouraging people to throw punches in the end benefits those with the biggest fists.

[merithyn]

How is that an imbalance of power, collective or otherwise?  I would describe that as a difference of opinion.

To take an example from the other thread: are women making a fuss out of a forced kiss a difference of opinion?

The problem with things being only matters of opinion is that it ignores that some opinions are backed with considerable more force than others. People who want to show how some majority opinions that appear neutral, are in fact reinforcing certain undesirable behavior. So, while "not all white people" are this, or that, or "not all men" are this or that, if some behavior, and opinions held in a very reasonable manner, are collectively enforced, even if through no ill will of one's own.

If stereotyping behaviour is the accepted norm, who is harmed most by it? Those with power, or those without?

The problem with "punching up" is that allowing or even encouraging people to throw punches in the end benefits those with the biggest fists.

And yet, there's demonstrable evidence that when those "below" strike, picket, otherwise disrupt what those "above" want, things change. We have a 5-day work week because those things happened. Calling out white men as a solid entity for the crap that the majority of their masses do is one method of disrupting the neat little world that white men control.

You may not agree with it much like many don't agree with Colin Kompernick, but it still forces enough discomfort for it to be noticed and at the very least addressed in some fashion.

[Malthus]

How is that an imbalance of power, collective or otherwise?  I would describe that as a difference of opinion.

To take an example from the other thread: are women making a fuss out of a forced kiss a difference of opinion?

The problem with things being only matters of opinion is that it ignores that some opinions are backed with considerable more force than others. People who want to show how some majority opinions that appear neutral, are in fact reinforcing certain undesirable behavior. So, while "not all white people" are this, or that, or "not all men" are this or that, if some behavior, and opinions held in a very reasonable manner, are collectively enforced, even if through no ill will of one's own.

If stereotyping behaviour is the accepted norm, who is harmed most by it? Those with power, or those without?

The problem with "punching up" is that allowing or even encouraging people to throw punches in the end benefits those with the biggest fists.

And yet, there's demonstrable evidence that when those "below" strike, picket, otherwise disrupt what those "above" want, things change. We have a 5-day work week because those things happened. Calling out white men as a solid entity for the crap that the majority of their masses do is one method of disrupting the neat little world that white men control.

You may not agree with it much like many don't agree with Colin Kompernick, but it still forces enough discomfort for it to be noticed and at the very least addressed in some fashion.

I disagree that the examples you have listed (striking, picketing, and the like) are equivalent in any way to using "white man" as a term of insult.

The point of striking and picketing is to call out specific injustices or abuses caused by specific people who have the power to make a change. They also call for sympathy from outsiders, drawing attention to these abuses.

I would argue using racially and sexually charged insults is both foolish and immoral.

It is foolish, because normalizing racial and sexual insults simply invites more of the same in return. Being insulted doesn't generally cause the target to sit back and think of their wrongdoings (particularly if they, personally, have not committed any, other than by association with unearned privilege - a concept that cannot be taught by 'white men, amIrite?'). Given the accepted notion that "white men" hold the preponderance of power, encouraging a naked power struggle with insults is, quite simply, dumb. For every radical progressive out there insulting white men, there are going to be ten or fifty Trump types insulting minorities and women. Any notion that insults create good behaviour will just be lost in this noise, the end result of which is every self-defined in-group gratutitously insulting every other - sort of like what we see in the dumber types of social media right now (see: this thread). 

It is immoral because generalizing and stereotyping all for the faults of some is immoral. It is an immorality that could perhaps be justified by results--except in this case, the results would be bad and not good, for the reasons above.  It is also hypocritical to decry insults and stereotypes as unfair when directed at oneself and then employ them oneself against others. "Do unto others as you would be done by".

[merithyn]

Then what is your suggestion to fix the obvious disparity in how white men - as a majority - treat all others? Their demonization and dehumanization of women, blacks, Hispanics, etc?

Because calling them out has resulted in fuck all.

[Tamas]

I am not dehumanising or demonising anyone.

[Barrister]

Then what is your suggestion to fix the obvious disparity in how white men - as a majority - treat all others? Their demonization and dehumanization of women, blacks, Hispanics, etc?

Because calling them out has resulted in fuck all.

You're as old as I am Meri - you haven't noticed a significant change in how we treat or talk about women and minorities in the last 20 years?

[viper37]

And yet, there's demonstrable evidence that when those "below" strike, picket, otherwise disrupt what those "above" want, things change.

not really.  Most changes appear gradually.

The present-day concept of the relatively longer 'week-end' first arose in the industrial north of Britain in the early part of the nineteenth century[1] and was originally a voluntary arrangement between factory owners and workers allowing Saturday afternoon off from 2pm in agreement that staff would be available for work sober and refreshed on Monday morning.[7] The Oxford English Dictionary traces the first use of the term weekend to the British magazine Notes and Queries in 1879.[8]

In 1908, the first five-day workweek in the United States was instituted by a New England cotton mill so that Jewish workers would not have to work on the Sabbath from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.[9]
In 1926, Henry Ford began shutting down his automotive factories for all of Saturday and Sunday. In 1929, the Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America Union was the first union to demand and receive a five-day workweek. The rest of the United States slowly followed, but it was not until 1940, when a provision of the 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act mandating a maximum 40-hour workweek went into effect, that the two-day weekend was adopted nationwide.[9]

[dps]

Then what is your suggestion to fix the obvious disparity in how white men - as a majority - treat all others? Their demonization and dehumanization of women, blacks, Hispanics, etc?

Because calling them out has resulted in fuck all.

You're as old as I am Meri - you haven't noticed a significant change in how we treat or talk about women and minorities in the last 20 years?

IIRC, she's older than you.  She's closer to my age--and I was born before the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed.

[Malthus]

Then what is your suggestion to fix the obvious disparity in how white men - as a majority - treat all others? Their demonization and dehumanization of women, blacks, Hispanics, etc?

Because calling them out has resulted in fuck all.

This again is a point on which we disagree. I think our society has made lots of changes. 

I am old enough to remember when gratuitous insults directed at women and minorities - to say nothing of gays - were absolutely the norm.

To take gays as an example, in my city, in my lifetime, we have gone from the cops rounding up gay men wherever they found them, driving them out to remote places, and beating the shit out of them (the "Cherry Beach Express" it was called); a time when the worst thing one guy could call another was "fag"; to the point where, now, gay weddings and the Pride Parade are a big deal.

The notion that we have resulted in "fuck all" is I think wrong. Change may be slower than one would like, but that's the nature of social change.

What worries me is that, in the age of Trump, we are regressing, not progressing. Not all change is good.

[merithyn]

Then what is your suggestion to fix the obvious disparity in how white men - as a majority - treat all others? Their demonization and dehumanization of women, blacks, Hispanics, etc?

Because calling them out has resulted in fuck all.

You're as old as I am Meri - you haven't noticed a significant change in how we treat or talk about women and minorities in the last 20 years?

BB, it's gotten worse. The past 5-10 years have been steadily getting worse, and it's ramped up since Trump was elected. I hear the N word by white men more now than I did as a kid. My freaking Uber drivers in Salt Lake City - all three of them - felt that it was perfectly okay to regal me with stories about how The Good Blacks are okay, but the rest of them... *shakes heads*

It was better, and now it's worse. And it continues to get worse.

So what's the solution?

[merithyn]

Then what is your suggestion to fix the obvious disparity in how white men - as a majority - treat all others? Their demonization and dehumanization of women, blacks, Hispanics, etc?

Because calling them out has resulted in fuck all.

You're as old as I am Meri - you haven't noticed a significant change in how we treat or talk about women and minorities in the last 20 years?

IIRC, she's older than you.  She's closer to my age--and I was born before the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed.

Am not! My birthday is Dec 1969.

[merithyn]

This again is a point on which we disagree. I think our society has made lots of changes. 

I am old enough to remember when gratuitous insults directed at women and minorities - to say nothing of gays - were absolutely the norm.

To take gays as an example, in my city, in my lifetime, we have gone from the cops rounding up gay men wherever they found them, driving them out to remote places, and beating the shit out of them (the "Cherry Beach Express" it was called); a time when the worst thing one guy could call another was "fag"; to the point where, now, gay weddings and the Pride Parade are a big deal.

The notion that we have resulted in "fuck all" is I think wrong. Change may be slower than one would like, but that's the nature of social change.

What worries me is that, in the age of Trump, we are regressing, not progressing. Not all change is good.

It's that last part that's at play here. Yes, legally, things have gotten better for the most part. Unless you're a woman, in which case the laws have steadily gotten worse. But what I'm talking about is the regression to referring to black men as "boy", or Hispanic men as "spic". And let's not even get into how women are called and treated; black women far moreso than anyone else. That language - that was pretty much gone throughout the 90s and early 00s - is now every day again. Transgender folks are regularly taken out and beaten, with an insane number of killings across the country.

[Tamas]

Then what is your suggestion to fix the obvious disparity in how white men - as a majority - treat all others? Their demonization and dehumanization of women, blacks, Hispanics, etc?

Because calling them out has resulted in fuck all.

You're as old as I am Meri - you haven't noticed a significant change in how we treat or talk about women and minorities in the last 20 years?

BB, it's gotten worse. The past 5-10 years have been steadily getting worse, and it's ramped up since Trump was elected. I hear the N word by white men more now than I did as a kid. My freaking Uber drivers in Salt Lake City - all three of them - felt that it was perfectly okay to regal me with stories about how The Good Blacks are okay, but the rest of them... *shakes heads*

It was better, and now it's worse. And it continues to get worse.

So what's the solution?

I can believe the last few years has seen a degradation compared to the years/decade before it, but on a longer scale the trend is still positive, and I don't think the likes of Trump can turn it around.

Doesn't mean people should just sit down and take it, obviously, but "the good ones are okay but the rest of them *shakes heads*" pretty much describes your posts here regarding white men.