A silent coup in Poland?

[Razgovory]

The idiocy of Raz's statement was not his insinuation that some Poles cheered on the Holocaust, but that outside of Holocaust, Poland and Poles did not suffer under German occupation.

No it wasn't you idiot.  I said that that they didn't really care about that type of Pole (Jewish Poles).

[Razgovory]

I'm all with the Brits on this. This is fucking disgraceful (I am not talking about killing some Hamas dude but stealing the identities of British citizens to carry out the deed). Fucking Jews think they can do anything because their American fuckbuddies will protect them.

Quote from a Polish citizen

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,3755.0.html

If we judge people by the Internet comments originating from their countries, then Americans aren't going to fare to well either.  Even on the question of antisemitism.

How about a study from the ADL?  http://global100.adl.org/#country/poland/2014

Question: Do Jews still talk to much about the Holocaust?  62% say "Yes!".

[mongers]

On the subject of loss in World War Two:



I couldn't help but reflect that this must have been one of the first few or tens of thousands of deaths in the War in Europe, I wonder how many then comprehended the possibility of the mass slaughter that would follow?

Full story behind the photo here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Polish_victim_of_German_Luftwaffe_action_1939.jpg

English: Kazimiera Mika, a ten-year-old Polish girl, mourns the death of her older sister, who was killed in a field near Jana Ostroroga Street in Warsaw during a German air raid by Luftwaffe.

Photographer Julien Bryan described the scene: "As we drove by a small field at the edge of town we were just a few minutes too late to witness a tragic event, the most incredible of all. Seven women had been digging potatoes in a field. There was no flour in their district, and they were desperate for food. Suddenly two German planes appeared from nowhere and dropped two bombs only two hundred yards away on a small home. Two women in the house were killed. The potato diggers dropped flat upon the ground, hoping to be unnoticed. After the bombers had gone, the women returned to their work. They had to have food.

But the Nazi fliers were not satisfied with their work. In a few minutes they came back and swooped down to within two hundred feet of the ground, this time raking the field with machine-gun fire. Two of the seven women were killed. The other five escaped somehow.

While I was photographing the bodies, a little ten-year old girl came running up and stood transfixed by one of the dead. The woman was her older sister. The child had never before seen death and couldn't understand why her sister would not speak to her...

The child looked at us in bewilderment. I threw my arm about her and held her tightly, trying to comfort her. She cried. So did I and the two Polish officers who were with me..." [Source: Bryan, Julien. "Warsaw: 1939 Siege; 1959 Warsaw Revisited."]

In September 1959 Julien Bryan wrote more about it in Look magazine:
In the offices of the Express, that child, Kazimiera Mika, now 30, and I were reunited. I asked her if she remembered anything of that tragic day in the potato field. "I should," she replied quietly. "It was the day I lost my sister, the day I first saw death, and the first time I met a foreigner - you." Today, Kazimiera is married to a Warsaw streetcar motorman. They have a 12-year-old girl and a boy, 9, and the family lives in a 1 1/2-room apartment, typical of the overcrowded conditions of war-racked Poland. .......

[Martinus]

Thanks, mongers. War, tragedy is very "prosaic", almost quotidian. That's why I think we should help the refugees from Syria, contrary to what the PiS voters may think.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

we had a nice overview of what PiS intends to do/has already done on the opinionpages of the national broadcaster. His final conclusion was that what PiS is doing -especially in regards to media- reeks of the communists. Constantly comparing PiS with the communists and/or Putin's Russians might be a nice way to tar them with 'in the pocket of foreign influences'-brush. Especially if they can bring up relevant similar policies the communists & Putinists enacted.

[Martinus]

Tamas, I have a question for you, going back to the PiS - Fides comparisons - to what extent Fides is insane?

What I mean by that, PiS in Poland is not just populist but they have a number of little pet peeves that make them seem quite nuts - for example they have just reopened the investigation into the Smolensk crash, with a running hypothesis being that it was caused by Putin in cahoots with the then Polish government. I wonder to what extent shit like this will be their downfall - I have an impression that Orban and Fides are bastards, but they are clever, cynical bastards - and this makes them popular with the masses (in the same way Erdogan or Putin are). On the other hand, Kaczynski and his cohorts are out of it.

[Syt]

Orban has pledged his support for the PiS government. He said he would oppose any sanctions against Poland and would if necessary veto them.

[The Minsky Moment]

From an outside perspective, the Civic Platform government looks like one of the most successful governments in Polish history - its management of the economic crisis was probably the best of any other government in the EU, and Poland's foreign policy clout and prestige were higher than they've ever been in modern times.  Seems nuts to ditch such a competent government for these PiS clowns.

[Martinus]

From an outside perspective, the Civic Platform government looks like one of the most successful governments in Polish history - its management of the economic crisis was probably the best of any other government in the EU, and Poland's foreign policy clout and prestige were higher than they've ever been in modern times.  Seems nuts to ditch such a competent government for these PiS clowns.

Yeah, but history is full of examples of democracies ditching competent governments after 8 years (two terms) in power. The question is what will happen during the next elections.

[Tamas]

Tamas, I have a question for you, going back to the PiS - Fides comparisons - to what extent Fides is insane?

What I mean by that, PiS in Poland is not just populist but they have a number of little pet peeves that make them seem quite nuts - for example they have just reopened the investigation into the Smolensk crash, with a running hypothesis being that it was caused by Putin in cahoots with the then Polish government. I wonder to what extent shit like this will be their downfall - I have an impression that Orban and Fides are bastards, but they are clever, cynical bastards - and this makes them popular with the masses (in the same way Erdogan or Putin are). On the other hand, Kaczynski and his cohorts are out of it.

Their only insanity is Orban's love of sports, football in particular. Then again it doubles as a great source of corruption money, so who knows how much of it is irrational.

Otherwise they would do ANYTHING but it would be a calculated step for more power or money.

[Martinus]

Tamas, I have a question for you, going back to the PiS - Fides comparisons - to what extent Fides is insane?

What I mean by that, PiS in Poland is not just populist but they have a number of little pet peeves that make them seem quite nuts - for example they have just reopened the investigation into the Smolensk crash, with a running hypothesis being that it was caused by Putin in cahoots with the then Polish government. I wonder to what extent shit like this will be their downfall - I have an impression that Orban and Fides are bastards, but they are clever, cynical bastards - and this makes them popular with the masses (in the same way Erdogan or Putin are). On the other hand, Kaczynski and his cohorts are out of it.

Their only insanity is Orban's love of sports, football in particular. Then again it doubles as a great source of corruption money, so who knows how much of it is irrational.

Otherwise they would do ANYTHING but it would be a calculated step for more power or money.

This gives me hope - Kaczynski and his cohorts are much more idiosyncratic.

[DGuller]

From an outside perspective, the Civic Platform government looks like one of the most successful governments in Polish history - its management of the economic crisis was probably the best of any other government in the EU, and Poland's foreign policy clout and prestige were higher than they've ever been in modern times.  Seems nuts to ditch such a competent government for these PiS clowns.

Yeah, but history is full of examples of democracies ditching competent governments after 8 years (two terms) in power. The question is what will happen during the next elections.

It's almost like people are getting bored and want to set the house on fire just for shits and giggles.  This anti-incumbent mood may be a beneficial instinct in some sense that preserves the health of democracy, but on the other hand it doesn't incentivize parties to be better custodians of their country when in power, since the power will just cycle back to them no matter how they act.

[Martinus]

From an outside perspective, the Civic Platform government looks like one of the most successful governments in Polish history - its management of the economic crisis was probably the best of any other government in the EU, and Poland's foreign policy clout and prestige were higher than they've ever been in modern times.  Seems nuts to ditch such a competent government for these PiS clowns.

Yeah, but history is full of examples of democracies ditching competent governments after 8 years (two terms) in power. The question is what will happen during the next elections.

It's almost like people are getting bored and want to set the house on fire just for shits and giggles.  This anti-incumbent mood may be a beneficial instinct in some sense that preserves the health of democracy, but on the other hand it doesn't incentivize parties to be better custodians of their country when in power, since the power will just cycle back to them no matter how they act.

In a two-party system, yeah. In multi-party system, not such much. Some parties simply disintegrate if they screw up too badly.

[DGuller]

In a two-party system, yeah. In multi-party system, not such much. Some parties simply disintegrate if they screw up too badly.

Good point.  How many parties do you have in Poland?  It feels like I've been hearing about these piss clowns since forever.

[Barrister]

From an outside perspective, the Civic Platform government looks like one of the most successful governments in Polish history - its management of the economic crisis was probably the best of any other government in the EU, and Poland's foreign policy clout and prestige were higher than they've ever been in modern times.  Seems nuts to ditch such a competent government for these PiS clowns.

Yeah, but history is full of examples of democracies ditching competent governments after 8 years (two terms) in power. The question is what will happen during the next elections.

It's almost like people are getting bored and want to set the house on fire just for shits and giggles.  This anti-incumbent mood may be a beneficial instinct in some sense that preserves the health of democracy, but on the other hand it doesn't incentivize parties to be better custodians of their country when in power, since the power will just cycle back to them no matter how they act.

See the last Canadian election...