The Paris Attack Debate Thread

[The Minsky Moment]

OK, this is starting to piss me off.

I AM NOT HOLDING IT UP AS REPRESENTATIVE OF ISLAM.

I am saying that there are a shitload of Islamic people who think that the use of violence is awesome. That killing gay people is the will of god. That executing women for adultery is a religious duty. That the death penalty for apostasy is in fact moral and just.

There are many who do not think any of those things, and those people are not a problem, and in fact we need to figure out how to make those peoples voices win out.

We don't insist that the problem really has nothing to do with Communism, but rather a host of other, changing variables while we insist that Communism itself is just fine, and really, no different that capitalism, because all social/economic systems are the same, after all.

I really don't want to piss you off, but there is a fundamental tension here that can't be glided over.

You can't simultaneously hold that Islam is inherently flawed and prone to violence in a way fundamentally different from other religions, and still engage with those Muslims who want to resist the terrorists and extremists in their mist.  Because your message to them is that while we are prepared to tolerate you for the time being, the only viable solution long term is to reject your religion.  Not only will people not accept that, it undermines their will to resist.

[grumbler]

reconsidered in what way though? that's what i mean. what happens if this reconsideration occurred?

Then we understand the causes of the violence better, and we seek solutions where they might actually exist, rather than where we prefer they exist.

well, i concede that you need islam to have islamic fundamentalism. but you don't need islam to have fundamentalism and barbaric views.

Well, I concede your trivial and obvious point.

[Tamas]

I think you guys are talking past each other.

The Canadian Dove Brigade says that the majoriy of Muslims living in the developed world are nowhere near extremist status.

Berkut and the rest are saying -in essence- that a significant portion of the muslim population WORLDWIDE either actively support violent and opressive regimes and violent solutions, or at least agree with such methods being the desired ones to rule society. That does qualify as extremists compared to our own moral compass.

I find both statements to be true.

[The Brain]

Since I don't give a flying fuck about any religion, any religion that makes an ass of itself can be eliminated as far as I am concerned.

[crazy canuck]

I think you guys are talking past each other.

The Canadian Dove Brigade says that the majoriy of Muslims living in the developed world are nowhere near extremist status.

Berkut and the rest are saying -in essence- that a significant portion of the muslim population WORLDWIDE either actively support violent and opressive regimes and violent solutions, or at least agree with such methods being the desired ones to rule society. That does qualify as extremists compared to our own moral compass.

I find both statements to be true.

Not really.  In addition to acknowledging that there are ok Muslims in the world there is a clear express sentiment that there is something wrong with Islamic beliefs.  As a result the notion expressed by the others is that while the moderates stay moderate they are ok but there is something not quite right about them.

[viper37]

But what I mostly want, and what they mostly refuse, is to examine themselves.  Why are there so many young muslims and recent converts seduced by the Jihad?  Is there something in their religious teachings that make them more vulnerable to extreme ideologies?  Is there something in their culture that emphasizes vicitimization?

Yi/Viper/Marti rants shown for what they are *Why do so many young Christian men commit violent crime.  Is there something in Christian teaching that pushes them to do it?  Moderate Christians are always on about how Christianity is a religion of love.  Why do they refuse to examine themselves and their culture?*

Not that many young Christian men commit violent crimes in the name of Christ today.  Of those that commit cri
Many young muslims worldwide join the Jihad and extremist groups like ISIS, Boko-Haram, Al-Queida&co, etc and many muslims express approval if not for their methods, for their beliefs.

As a Canadian, I sure want to know why a young Canadian is seduced by such an ideology.  If a significant proportion of Quebecers were racists and assaulting arabs&jews, I'd like to know why it happens, what needs to change in my society for this to stop.  Isolated incidents are one thing.  10 youths from the same school trying to leave for Jihad is something else.

Guys, you cant hold the majority of a religious belief culpable for the acts of minority extremes.

And I am not, and you would see it if you took the time to read my comments.

[The Minsky Moment]

There is a myth that Israel created Hamas as a way of combating Fatah.

Like many myths, there is a tiny kernel of truth to it.  From the Israeli POV c. the late 70s/80s the early Hamas organization did not seem a serious threat or priority.  Because EVERYONE KNEW that Arab terrorism was a nationalist and ideological phenomenon, not a religious one.  Yes there was political Islam - the Muslim Brotherhood organization that early Hamas was affiliated with - but it was well understood that political Islam de-emphasized violent confrontation.  So the Israelis by and large adopted a strategy of benign neglect to Hamas, while pursuing an aggressive strategy of isolation and co-option of Fattah/PLO, ultimately culminating in the uneasy cooperation of the peace process and the Palestinian Authority.  At which point Hamas then emerged as the leading edge of violence.

The forces that lead to extreme violence and terrorism in the Middle East have been around for decades.  They haven't changed or gone away.  What has changed is that the traditional channels for that terroristic violence -- like Nasserite nationalism or pan-Arabism or revolutionary socialism -- have been discredited or co-opted, leaving the mosque as the only avenue for radical, political dissent.  It is a demand side phenomenon not a supply side.

There is a natural tendency to focus on the problem or headline of the day and view everything through the distorting lens of the immediate, without regard to context or history.  In the 1980s, what mattered to Israel was isolating Arafat and they had zero concern about a small band of bearded religious scholars with a few guns.  In the 1980s, the single highest priority of the US in the region was to unseat Najibullah in Afghanistan; right now I bet we'd love to have him back in control. 

Right now the problem of the day is Islamic terrorists, and so there is a tendency to see everything - past, present, and future - through that lens. 

Back up and get perspective

[DGuller]

And the irony is that the Martinus/Yi* view is exactly the narrative the very worst of the terrorists are trying to push - that they represent and reflect the true nature of the religion. And by validating that view, we undermine the very forces necessary to defeat them, and contribute to the cycle of disaffection that the terrorist feed off of.  Daesh aren't stupid - they know they cannot present any real military threat to the West or even threaten the economy, but because they know it will sow panic and fear and the very kind of knee-jerk anti-Islamic xenophobia we see in this thread and in the GOP primary candidates.  It is grist for their mill.

*Leaving out B for now for reasons will address in the next post.

The point of terrorism is to provoke a disastrous allergic reaction in societies being targeted.  This whole business with refugees, that's really attacking our fabric of society.

That's not to say that we should engage in moral relativism.  Many of the Muslim countries' cultures should be disdained for promoting values that are in direct contrast to the concept of liberty.  That should be the case regardless of the whole terrorism issue, which in the large scheme of things isn't really such a big deal unless you live in Israel.

[crazy canuck]

Back up and get perspective

[DGuller]

Back up and get perspective

I was going to say the same thing, and say it exactly the same way.

[Grey Fox]

I had Yi's comments in this thread in mind when I was speaking to a Muslim friend of mine last night.  He expressed a great deal of frustration that society seems to put an obligation on moderates like him to publicly explain that the nutbar Muslims do not represent the views of all Muslims and actually represent only the views of a radical minority.  He said he didn't mind doing it at first because he thought it was important to educate the public.  But he and other Muslims have been trying to do that now for years and there are still idiots out there (here is where I had a clear picture of Yi in my mind) who continue to go on about how all Muslims should be painted with the same brush.

That's the problem right here.

I don't want moderate muslims to explain me the nutbars are a minority.  I already know that.  If a majority of muslims were extremists, I don't think we could walk safely in our streets.

Of course, there will always be racists that insist all/nearly all muslims are a threat to us.  Europe is worst because they have extreme right-wing parties that channel the frustration of entire societies towards jews&muslims.

I am willing to question our society, if we are making enough place for the young muslims to grow as individual part of our greater collective.  I am more than willing to listen to the moderates telling us how the radicals are poisoning their communities.

But what I mostly want, and what they mostly refuse, is to examine themselves.  Why are there so many young muslims and recent converts seduced by the Jihad?  Is there something in their religious teachings that make them more vulnerable to extreme ideologies?  Is there something in their culture that emphasizes vicitimization?

I was reading a French marxist muslim over at the french forum, and as usual, it was a deaf dialogue, but he said something that I have read more than once in Arab medias: while we are not directly blamed for the Crusades and the failure of modernization in Arab countries (rather that modernization did not brought them to the forefront, to the dominant position the West enjoys), these two events have marked the psyche and are transmitted from generation to generation.  Both creates a sentiment of inferiory (an enlightened society beaten by savages during the Crusades) combined with a feeling that traditions are more important than modernism since it gives no tangible results.

Of course, the impetus is on us, the Western world, to change, so that we adapt to muslim&arabic culture.  Something I reject.  Yes, I am a cultural relativist, I believe my western culture of tolerance and freedom is better than islamic culture as we currently see it in most countries.  I don't think we should break the legs of the fastest runner so others have a chance to catch up.
But I'd like to see some solutions (there are, not many, but there are) coming from their community.  Not stating the obvious.  Why is it that such extreme idelogies have an easier hold on their communities than ours?

It will happen in due time, viper. In due time. Be patient. 3rd and 4th generations of immigrants, in Canada atleast, won't be religious extremists.

[Tamas]

You are missing the different scales in different countries, for one.

As Berkut mentioned, this really is a conflict within the Muslim world. I believe we are the "fringes" of it. The terror attacks against the West are to reinforce their positions in their own societies.

However, while this means it is next to impossible for Muslim extremism to be anything worse than the threat of isolated rare incidents of attacks in the US and Canada, you have countries like France.

As far as I can judge, something has decidedly gone wrong with the integration of their Muslim population there. I am not blaming the Muslims for that. I am quite ready to blame the French Seriously though, the truth in these matters is usually in the middle, but you can't deny that France has more trouble in this regard than, say, the UK.

My point is, it is easy to sanctimonious about this from Canada - there is no risk involved for you. If you misjudge the situation, then you MIGHT get one more terrorist attack a year. In the US it would hardly register next to all the school shootings

However, if France mis-manages the apparent and obvious increased popularity of extremist Islamist views within his society, then the stakes are much, much higher. And by mis-manage I am not necessarily mean being too lenient on extremists or not being fascist enough in their response. It is very possible that trying to tackle this via force and guns is just making things worse. I do not know.
But the worry and the aggrevation is warranted.

[Barrister]

You are missing the different scales in different countries, for one.

As Berkut mentioned, this really is a conflict within the Muslim world. I believe we are the "fringes" of it. The terror attacks against the West are to reinforce their positions in their own societies.

However, while this means it is next to impossible for Muslim extremism to be anything worse than the threat of isolated rare incidents of attacks in the US and Canada, you have countries like France.

As far as I can judge, something has decidedly gone wrong with the integration of their Muslim population there. I am not blaming the Muslims for that. I am quite ready to blame the French Seriously though, the truth in these matters is usually in the middle, but you can't deny that France has more trouble in this regard than, say, the UK.

My point is, it is easy to sanctimonious about this from Canada - there is no risk involved for you. If you misjudge the situation, then you MIGHT get one more terrorist attack a year. In the US it would hardly register next to all the school shootings

I appreciate the scale is different, but Canada has been hit by terrorist attacks as well, some quite recently.  Remember we had an islamic-inspired shooter loose on Parliament a year ago.

[crazy canuck]

My point is, it is easy to sanctimonious about this from Canada - there is no risk involved for you.

I have a short fuse for ignorance at the best of times.  But this kind of ignorance is startling.  Go google the people that have died in Canada because of acts by Muslim extremists in Canada.  Google the face of the boy who lost his father.  Then google the attacks that were stopped in Canada over the last two years.  Then come back and apologize for being such an ass.

[Martinus]

I had Yi's comments in this thread in mind when I was speaking to a Muslim friend of mine last night.  He expressed a great deal of frustration that society seems to put an obligation on moderates like him to publicly explain that the nutbar Muslims do not represent the views of all Muslims and actually represent only the views of a radical minority.  He said he didn't mind doing it at first because he thought it was important to educate the public.  But he and other Muslims have been trying to do that now for years and there are still idiots out there (here is where I had a clear picture of Yi in my mind) who continue to go on about how all Muslims should be painted with the same brush.

I hope you are not trying to ascribe these views to me as they do not describe me.

I think the onus is not on moderate Muslims but on Western liberals to decry the oppressive treatment of minority groups and women in Muslim countries at the hands of the conservative regimes (and frequently conservative majority).

We are not asking where the moderate Muslims are because we know that - they are in Saudi, Pakistani and Bahraini prisons. But Western left prefers to be outraged about some kid in Texas who was detained for few hours at school for constructing a clock, and not about a blogger getting lashed or hacked to pieces.