The Paris Attack Debate Thread

[LaCroix]

I am not arguing about the last thread, but this one.

I think it is poor form to construct strawmen, myself.

in this thread, i never said "religion never motivates the actions of a few."

[Admiral Yi]

that's exactly my point. it's not where these people are from, it's where the groups that inspire these attacks come from.

I see.  So your thesis, to summarize, is that the concept and impetus for terrorism comes from "broken worlds," and thus, by extension, if these broken worlds didn't exist, people living in non-broken worlds would be singing kumbaya with the Quakers.

Your problem then becomes how to explain someone like that Norwegian Socialist killer, or Timothy McVeigh, or any number of Western terrorists, who were not inspired by messages originating in 3rd World hellholes.  Or for that matter, all those bored credit card communists who kidnapped and murdered for the cause in the 60s.

You also have to explain the difference in response rates.  There's all kinds of white power nonsense floating around the internet, yet we don't see the same frequency of terrorist attacks perpetrated by skinheads as we do by Muslims.

it shows, from a very basic angle, that people act because they're human. they don't just act like religious robots or something, which i think is sometimes lost on people. islam didn't do this attack, just like christianity or any other religion isn't responsible for the crimes committed by worshipers.

My predicting how ISIS would react to a promise by the US not to interfere in their world conquest shows that?  If I changed my prediction would it disprove it?

[LaCroix]

I see.  So your thesis, to summarize, is that the concept and impetus for terrorism comes from "broken worlds," and thus, by extension, if these broken worlds didn't exist, people living in non-broken worlds would be singing kumbaya with the Quakers.

mostly correct.

Your problem then becomes how to explain someone like that Norwegian Socialist killer, or Timothy McVeigh, or any number of Western terrorists, who were not inspired by messages originating in 3rd World hellholes.  Or for that matter, all those bored credit card communists who kidnapped and murdered for the cause in the 60s.

easy, there's always going to be lone rangers. some people are just nuts.

You also have to explain the difference in response rates.  There's all kinds of white power nonsense floating around the internet, yet we don't see the same frequency of terrorist attacks perpetrated by skinheads as we do by Muslims.

first, white power = just words. it's always easier to say something than do something. second, there are no major violent white power groups anymore. there used to be, the KKK. that used to inspired people to commit terrorist acts all the time - e.g., the south, post-civil war.

My predicting how ISIS would react to a promise by the US not to interfere in their world conquest shows that?  If I changed my prediction would it disprove it?

well, if you changed your prediction, it'd be unreasonable. i read "test" after i posted it and thought... that's not the right word. i was more trying to suggest that these attacks are pure retaliation, a very human reaction, rather than anything philosophical/religious.

[Eddie Teach]

if they took everything and all that was left was the US, yeah. but i mean before that.

That's kind of a silly hypothetical, don't you think?

ISIS *might* not attack the US if they're busy conquering the rest of the world and the US promises not to interfere, until ISIS has conquered the rest of the world, at which point I would expect ISIS to try and conquer the US.

I don't think you should just assume ISIS would win if the West was out of the picture. Sure, they were making gains a couple years ago, but that was in two highly dysfunctional states.

[Syt]

Poland's foreign minister has suggested training refugees as an army in exile. "It can't be that we send our soldiers to fight in Syria while hundreds of thousands of Syrians sit in Berlin and drink coffee. [...] Tens of thousands of young men leave their rubber boats with their iPads and ask not for food and water but for a place to charge their cell phones!"

[Martinus]

Poland's foreign minister has suggested training refugees as an army in exile. "It can't be that we send our soldiers to fight in Syria while hundreds of thousands of Syrians sit in Berlin and drink coffee. [...] Tens of thousands of young men leave their rubber boats with their iPads and ask not for food and water but for a place to charge their cell phones!"

Funnily, this is also what Bill Maher has been saying.

[Martinus]

By the way, what do you guys think of the idea? The guy is from PiS, so all the liberal and leftist media are making fun of him and saying he is making us into an international laughingstock, but I am not sure if this is such a bad idea - and even if it is a bad idea, it is not outside of the realm of discussion that European politicians engage in.

[Martinus]

Here is more elaborate statement:

Polish minister says Syrians can return to fight and 'liberate' homeland

Warsaw (AFP) - The hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees pouring into Europe can be trained to form an army and return to "liberate" their homeland, Poland's new foreign minister said on Sunday.

Witold Waszczykowski also told public television that the refugees could be gainfully employed in this manner rather than sipping coffee on an iconic Berlin avenue or other European cities.

"Hundreds of thousands of Syrians have come to Europe recently. We can help them form an army," he said.

"Tens of thousands of young men disembark from their rubber dinghies with iPad in hand and instead of asking for drink or food, they ask where they can charge their cellphones.

"They can go to fight to liberate their country with our help," said the minister, who takes office on Monday.

Waszczykowski said he was trying to avoid a situation where "we send our soldiers to fight in Syria while hundreds of thousands of Syrians drink their coffee in (Berlin's) Unter den Linden" boulevard or in other European cities.

Germany has to date maintained an open-door policy for Syrians escaping their country's bloodshed, giving them "primary protection" -- the highest status for refugees.

Poland's incoming European Affairs Minister Konrad Szymanski said Saturday that Warsaw no longer considered an EU plan to redistribute refugees across Europe as a "political possibility" in light of the Paris attacks that left at least 129 people dead.

The programme -- long criticised by the EU's eastern-most members -- has come under fresh criticism after officials said a Syrian passport found at the scene of one of the attacks belonged to an asylum seeker who registered on a Greek island in October.

http://news.yahoo.com/polish-minister-says-syrians-return-fight-liberate-homeland-225004972.html;_ylt=A0LEViOUF0lW8pAAAKhjmolQ

Comments section is agreeing with him (not that it counts for much...)

[Monoriu]

By the way, what do you guys think of the idea? The guy is from PiS, so all the liberal and leftist media are making fun of him and saying he is making us into an international laughingstock, but I am not sure if this is such a bad idea - and even if it is a bad idea, it is not outside of the realm of discussion that European politicians engage in.

Bay of Pigs.

[Tonitrus]

In theory, it's not a bad idea.

But if they won't train and go back to fight...what then?

[Jaron]

Bay of Pigs won't be an issue here. Muslims hate pork. It might be Bay of Lambs or Bay of Camels though.

[Martinus]

"This is the time to mourn, not point fingers."
"Religions don't kill people. People kill people."

As if I was listening to the NRA...

[Syt]

By the way, what do you guys think of the idea? The guy is from PiS, so all the liberal and leftist media are making fun of him and saying he is making us into an international laughingstock, but I am not sure if this is such a bad idea - and even if it is a bad idea, it is not outside of the realm of discussion that European politicians engage in.

I think there's some merit to offer volunteers to train them and, if enough volunteer, form them into a unit. It worked for the Finnish Jägers in WW1.

I'm more annoyed by the rhetoric accompanying the suggestion.

[Admiral Yi]

easy, there's always going to be lone rangers. some people are just nuts.

The Red Army Faction and their ilk were hardly lone rangers.

first, white power = just words. it's always easier to say something than do something. second, there are no major violent white power groups anymore. there used to be, the KKK. that used to inspired people to commit terrorist acts all the time - e.g., the south, post-civil war.

And in which broken world did the idea of lynching uppity blacks first originate, so that Klansmen, who would otherwise have sung kumbaya endlessly, could be properly proselytized in the La Croix fashion?

[Admiral Yi]

Here is more elaborate statement:

Polish minister says Syrians can return to fight and 'liberate' homeland

Warsaw (AFP) - The hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees pouring into Europe can be trained to form an army and return to "liberate" their homeland, Poland's new foreign minister said on Sunday.

Witold Waszczykowski also told public television that the refugees could be gainfully employed in this manner rather than sipping coffee on an iconic Berlin avenue or other European cities.

"Hundreds of thousands of Syrians have come to Europe recently. We can help them form an army," he said.

"Tens of thousands of young men disembark from their rubber dinghies with iPad in hand and instead of asking for drink or food, they ask where they can charge their cellphones.

"They can go to fight to liberate their country with our help," said the minister, who takes office on Monday.

Waszczykowski said he was trying to avoid a situation where "we send our soldiers to fight in Syria while hundreds of thousands of Syrians drink their coffee in (Berlin's) Unter den Linden" boulevard or in other European cities.

Germany has to date maintained an open-door policy for Syrians escaping their country's bloodshed, giving them "primary protection" -- the highest status for refugees.

Poland's incoming European Affairs Minister Konrad Szymanski said Saturday that Warsaw no longer considered an EU plan to redistribute refugees across Europe as a "political possibility" in light of the Paris attacks that left at least 129 people dead.

The programme -- long criticised by the EU's eastern-most members -- has come under fresh criticism after officials said a Syrian passport found at the scene of one of the attacks belonged to an asylum seeker who registered on a Greek island in October.

http://news.yahoo.com/polish-minister-says-syrians-return-fight-liberate-homeland-225004972.html;_ylt=A0LEViOUF0lW8pAAAKhjmolQ

Comments section is agreeing with him (not that it counts for much...)

I was unaware that Poland was going to send troops to fight in Syria.

The comments about charging their phones and sipping coffee makes it abundantly clear that he is not interested in solutions but rather in rationalizing Poland's refusal to accept refugees.