Dept of Education declares that school must allow boy to shower with girls

[Martinus]

Again I am not sure I agree. I am not talking about educating to be "right thinking". I am talking about educating about facts (such as "a transgendered student is not a boy despite being born with male genitals"). Surely, if the community and the school board was "educating" students that the Earth is flat and is in fact one of the genitals of Satan, Our Supreme Lord and Saviour, the Board of Education would have a right to intervene. How else would you enforce compliance with the national curriculum (which may - and in fact should - include anti-discrimination education).

Right so if a girl, or her family or whatever, freak out that somebody they think is a boy is allowed in their shower they are wrong and must be taught to be correct. Ergo 'right thinking'.

You have to weigh the conflicting rights and sensibilities here. If a girl freaks out about this, then it is not about "teaching her to be correct", but about explaining the situation to her and trying to have her understand the context. It would be the same if a white girl freaked out about having to shower with a black girl.

Otoh, the concerns of the girl's family should be of absolutely no relevance.

[Martinus]

I don't have such idea - that is why I support the Vancouverian policy Crazy Canuck quoted, which calls for such cases to be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. We are talking of possibly a handful of students per school, so there is no need for a "one size fits all" policy.

Yes but there has to be a minimum standard nationwide if this is a human rights issue. So sure a school district or board may make rulings on a case by case basis to benefit the student and the community but there has to be a baseline of compliance that suits every case. If this is a human rights issue and it seems to be.

Ok. But as others asked - why is this an issue again?

[Martinus]

I don't know that would say that though yes I think teachers and administrators being smacked for spreading ignorant and backwards views. I also don't fear culture wars as I see them as a great opportunity to grind the outdated into the ground. Very unlikely that at my former high school today would a health teacher shame gay students by stating anal sex is bad as the anus is an exit only area.

Well I think we are in agreement here. I was responding to Marty claiming that if any girls have a problem with somebody who is physically male in their shower they should be educated to be right thinking. That seems a bit...difficult to pull off unless the community and school board are on board.

Again I am not sure I agree. I am not talking about educating to be "right thinking". I am talking about educating about facts (such as "a transgendered student is not a boy despite being born with male genitals"). Surely, if the community and the school board was "educating" students that the Earth is flat and is in fact one of the genitals of Satan, Our Supreme Lord and Saviour, the Board of Education would have a right to intervene. How else would you enforce compliance with the national curriculum (which may - and in fact should - include anti-discrimination education).

Your idea that there is a strict dividing line between 100% boy and 0% boy with no middle ground is weird.

I don't have such idea - that is why I support the Vancouverian policy Crazy Canuck quoted, which calls for such cases to be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. We are talking of possibly a handful of students per school, so there is no need for a "one size fits all" policy.

You presented "a transgendered student is not a boy despite being born with male genitals" as a fact.

Yes, but I am talking about a situation where, on a case-by-case psychological evaluation, it has already been established that the transgendered student identifies with the non-biological sex and should be treated as the sex they identify with instead.

[Malthus]

I think this is liberalism gone mad. The basic rule should be: Got a dick, shower with boys. He MAY feel uncomfortable, but what about the girls having to shower with a boy?

Why not educate the girls that the child is not a boy, and therefore they should not feel uncomfortable, instead?

The same issue exists for having gender-separate facilities in the first place. It would be great (plus a savings of expense) to simply educate children to not suffer shyness or have any other problems in the presence of naked kids with different genitals, and maybe in the future that will be the way forward - but for as long as such differences are culturally ingrained, it seems incoherent to accommodate them by having different facilities generally, but to ignore them in specific cases. It strikes me as creating more problems than it solves.

The idea, I would think, would be to educate kids to accept Trans kids without bullying, teasing, or confrontation. I think it does no particular good to attempt to educate all girls into accepting that goal by specifically requiring them to shower alongside a trans girl, an act that simply highlights the physical difference, in a culture that still makes a big deal about such physical differences (insofar as it has separate facilities). While in the ideal world there ought to be no problem with that, and maybe in some places and with some individuals there isn't, requiring all trans girls to shower with the girls maybe isn't the best policy; I would prefer a flexible policy of accommodation based on individual circumstances. Here's another example, from the Toronto school board:

http://www.tdsb.on.ca/AboutUs/Innovation/GenderBasedViolencePrevention/AccommodationofTransgenderStudentsandStaff.aspx

[Valmy]

I don't have such idea - that is why I support the Vancouverian policy Crazy Canuck quoted, which calls for such cases to be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. We are talking of possibly a handful of students per school, so there is no need for a "one size fits all" policy.

Yes but there has to be a minimum standard nationwide if this is a human rights issue. So sure a school district or board may make rulings on a case by case basis to benefit the student and the community but there has to be a baseline of compliance that suits every case. If this is a human rights issue and it seems to be.

Ok. But as others asked - why is this an issue again?

I thought that was the issue we were discussing

If you do not think it merits discussion feel free not to post here.

[The Brain]

I don't know that would say that though yes I think teachers and administrators being smacked for spreading ignorant and backwards views. I also don't fear culture wars as I see them as a great opportunity to grind the outdated into the ground. Very unlikely that at my former high school today would a health teacher shame gay students by stating anal sex is bad as the anus is an exit only area.

Well I think we are in agreement here. I was responding to Marty claiming that if any girls have a problem with somebody who is physically male in their shower they should be educated to be right thinking. That seems a bit...difficult to pull off unless the community and school board are on board.

Again I am not sure I agree. I am not talking about educating to be "right thinking". I am talking about educating about facts (such as "a transgendered student is not a boy despite being born with male genitals"). Surely, if the community and the school board was "educating" students that the Earth is flat and is in fact one of the genitals of Satan, Our Supreme Lord and Saviour, the Board of Education would have a right to intervene. How else would you enforce compliance with the national curriculum (which may - and in fact should - include anti-discrimination education).

Your idea that there is a strict dividing line between 100% boy and 0% boy with no middle ground is weird.

I don't have such idea - that is why I support the Vancouverian policy Crazy Canuck quoted, which calls for such cases to be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. We are talking of possibly a handful of students per school, so there is no need for a "one size fits all" policy.

You presented "a transgendered student is not a boy despite being born with male genitals" as a fact.

Yes, but I am talking about a situation where, on a case-by-case psychological evaluation, it has already been established that the transgendered student identifies with the non-biological sex and should be treated as the sex they identify with instead.

So?

[garbon]

Claws come out!

[Tamas]

Other than practical consideration for accomodating bigots, why exactly would that be?

Going by that logic, Brown vs. Board of Education also created a lot of "shit storm for the local communities". But when it did, someone braver than you sent in the National Guard.

Oh FFS. Transgendered students are not be segregated out of school. We are talking about bathroom accommodations.

Priorities Valmy, priorities. Get in line.

[Razgovory]

Ok, let me ask a question to Tamas, Yi, Josephus, DGuller and the rest of the crowd here - do you guys question the objective existence of transgenderism as something that is inborn and "incurable"?

Do you recognize this as a known mental illness as categorized by ISC and DSM?

[garbon]

Ok, let me ask a question to Tamas, Yi, Josephus, DGuller and the rest of the crowd here - do you guys question the objective existence of transgenderism as something that is inborn and "incurable"?

Do you recognize this as a known mental illness as categorized by ISC and DSM?

DSM V has gender dysphoria to relate to the distress these individuals feel and not to suggest being transgender is a disorder. Besides the Dsm is a living document and changes its stance over time.

[Admiral Yi]

You have to weigh the conflicting rights and sensibilities here. If a girl freaks out about this, then it is not about "teaching her to be correct", but about explaining the situation to her and trying to have her understand the context. It would be the same if a white girl freaked out about having to shower with a black girl.

Would it be the same as if a girl with a penis freaked out about having to shower with boys with penises?

[Razgovory]

Ok, let me ask a question to Tamas, Yi, Josephus, DGuller and the rest of the crowd here - do you guys question the objective existence of transgenderism as something that is inborn and "incurable"?

Do you recognize this as a known mental illness as categorized by ISC and DSM?

DSM V has gender dysphoria to relate to the distress these individuals feel and not to suggest being transgender is a disorder. Besides the Dsm is a living document and changes its stance over time.

Individuals feel stress because of the disorder.  They believe they are living in the wrong type of body.  There are similar illnesses that don't revolve around gender.  But just to be clear the DSM has currently regards this as a mental illness.  It may change one day, it may not.  But the current medical and scientific consensus is that it is an illness. To argue otherwise is contradict science.

[garbon]

Again DSM V makes a point not to suggest the gender identity is actually a problem to correct but rather the distress that comes from it.

[Razgovory]

Again DSM V makes a point not to suggest the gender identity is actually a problem to correct but rather the distress that comes from it.

Yes, but that's not different from a lot of mental illnesses.  Is it or is it not an illness in the DSM V?

[garbon]

Gender dysphoria is. As far as I know, gender identity disorder no longer is.