Dept of Education declares that school must allow boy to shower with girls

[Martinus]

I think this is liberalism gone mad. The basic rule should be: Got a dick, shower with boys. He MAY feel uncomfortable, but what about the girls having to shower with a boy?

Why not educate the girls that the child is not a boy, and therefore they should not feel uncomfortable, instead?

Somehow I don't think the Department of Education has this kind of authority to rule on society wide standards.

This is a bizarre statement. Shouldn't public schools be in the "business" of promoting inclusive learning environment for students, especially if it is based on science? Does the Department of Education has authority to teach children they shouldn't call black students the n-word?

[Valmy]

Btw here is the Vancouver School Board policy regarding the same issue.

a.The use of washrooms and change rooms by trans* students shall be assessed on a case-by-case basis with the goals of maximizing the student's social integration, ensuring the student's safety and comfort, minimizing stigmatization and providing equal opportunity to participate in physical education classes and sports.
b.Trans* students shall have access to the washroom and change room that corresponds to their gender identity. Students who desire increased privacy will be provided with a reasonable alternative washroom and/or changing area. Any alternative arrangement will be provided in a way that protects the student's ability to keep their trans* status confidential.
c.The decision with regard to washroom and change room use shall be made in consultation with the trans* student.
d.The Board will strive to make available single stall gender-neutral washrooms at all school locations and worksites

This is a good policy. The problem I have is when it comes down to HUMAN RIGHTS being violated and that determination is being made by a federal agency. They cannot do this kind of thing, that is a school board's prerogative. So they have to say 'human rights require you to do X'. And this standard has to be reasonably applied to hundreds of small districts in a dizzying variety of communities across this country. Tricky.

[Martinus]

Btw here is the Vancouver School Board policy regarding the same issue.

a.The use of washrooms and change rooms by trans* students shall be assessed on a case-by-case basis with the goals of maximizing the student's social integration, ensuring the student's safety and comfort, minimizing stigmatization and providing equal opportunity to participate in physical education classes and sports.
b.Trans* students shall have access to the washroom and change room that corresponds to their gender identity. Students who desire increased privacy will be provided with a reasonable alternative washroom and/or changing area. Any alternative arrangement will be provided in a way that protects the student's ability to keep their trans* status confidential.
c.The decision with regard to washroom and change room use shall be made in consultation with the trans* student.
d.The Board will strive to make available single stall gender-neutral washrooms at all school locations and worksites

This is a good policy. The problem I have is when it comes down to HUMAN RIGHTS being violated and that determination is being made by a federal agency. They cannot do this kind of thing, that is a school board's prerogative. So they have to say 'human rights require you to do X'. And this standard has to be reasonably applied to hundreds of small districts in a dizzying variety of communities across this country. Tricky.

Ok, but this is a rather obscure formal point that does not really fit into the discussion on values we are having here.

[Valmy]

This is a bizarre statement. Shouldn't public schools be in the "business" of promoting inclusive learning environment for students?

It is not that simple.

[Martinus]

This is a bizarre statement. Shouldn't public schools be in the "business" of promoting inclusive learning environment for students?

It is not that simple.

It is only "not that simple" because a part of the society lives in a bizarre prejudiced world that is orthogonal to understanding of modern psychology.

[The Brain]

Just build a separate unique snowflake shower for all the precious deviants. Problem solved.

[Valmy]

Ok, but this is a rather obscure formal point that does not really fit into the discussion on values we are having here.

It absolutely does. Values are controlled by local communities in this country and we are discussing a judgement made by the department of education that will apply everywhere. So I thought the question was what standard could be applied to protect trans students in all these communities, many of which are not progressive. So hence why reasonableness, like Malthus was discussing, is important. Trans students are not going to be protected by making this a culture war battlefield where the Feds are going to try to define Gender for the whole nation.

[garbon]

Ok, but this is a rather obscure formal point that does not really fit into the discussion on values we are having here.

It absolutely does. Values are controlled by local communities in this country and we are discussing a judgement made by the department of education that will apply everywhere. So I thought the question was what standard could be applied to protect trans students in all these communities, many of which are not progressive. So hence why reasonableness, like Malthus was discussing, is important. Trans students are not going to be protected by making this a culture war battlefield where the Feds are going to try to define Gender for the whole nation.

I don't see why not. The battlefield has already long been set for transgender folks, so it isn't a matter of starting a war but rather seeing it through.

[Valmy]

It is only "not that simple" because a part of the society lives in a bizarre prejudiced world that is orthogonal to understanding of modern psychology.

Yes. And those people have democratic rights to enforce their will. Hence the lack of the kind of simplicity we would have if the Philosopher Kings were in charge.

[crazy canuck]

Btw here is the Vancouver School Board policy regarding the same issue.

a.The use of washrooms and change rooms by trans* students shall be assessed on a case-by-case basis with the goals of maximizing the student's social integration, ensuring the student's safety and comfort, minimizing stigmatization and providing equal opportunity to participate in physical education classes and sports.
b.Trans* students shall have access to the washroom and change room that corresponds to their gender identity. Students who desire increased privacy will be provided with a reasonable alternative washroom and/or changing area. Any alternative arrangement will be provided in a way that protects the student's ability to keep their trans* status confidential.
c.The decision with regard to washroom and change room use shall be made in consultation with the trans* student.
d.The Board will strive to make available single stall gender-neutral washrooms at all school locations and worksites

This is a good policy. The problem I have is when it comes down to HUMAN RIGHTS being violated and that determination is being made by a federal agency. They cannot do this kind of thing, that is a school board's prerogative. So they have to say 'human rights require you to do X'. And this standard has to be reasonably applied to hundreds of small districts in a dizzying variety of communities across this country. Tricky.

The policy was created, in large part, to be in compliance with our Human Rights Act. 

[Valmy]

I don't see why not. The battlefield has already long been set for transgender folks, so it isn't a matter of starting a war but rather seeing it through.

Alright so you are in favor of a required gender education standard for the entire country?

[crazy canuck]

It is only "not that simple" because a part of the society lives in a bizarre prejudiced world that is orthogonal to understanding of modern psychology.

Yes. And those people have democratic rights to enforce their will. Hence the lack of the kind of simplicity we would have if the Philosopher Kings were in charge.

I don't really understand your point.  What was being enforced here was Human Rights Legislation which was itself enacted by a democratically elected body.

[Valmy]

I don't really understand your point.  What was being enforced here was Human Rights Legislation which was itself enacted by a democratically elected body.

My point was exactly that. This was a school board elected by a community that supported these ideas and passed legislation to address it. I think that is great.

But I thought we were discussing an order passed down by the Department of Education

Oh wait you are talking about anti-discrimination laws. Well I don't think those have specific standards on how to apply them. How to do that, I thought, was the topic of conversation. I suppose it could involve mandating a nationwide gender education standard. But wow...

[garbon]

I don't see why not. The battlefield has already long been set for transgender folks, so it isn't a matter of starting a war but rather seeing it through.

Alright so you are in favor of a required gender education standard for the entire country?

I don't know that would say that though yes I think teachers and administrators being smacked for spreading ignorant and backwards views. I also don't fear culture wars as I see them as a great opportunity to grind the outdated into the ground. Very unlikely that at my former high school today would a health teacher shame gay students by stating anal sex is bad as the anus is an exit only area.

[Valmy]

I don't know that would say that though yes I think teachers and administrators being smacked for spreading ignorant and backwards views. I also don't fear culture wars as I see them as a great opportunity to grind the outdated into the ground. Very unlikely that at my former high school today would a health teacher shame gay students by stating anal sex is bad as the anus is an exit only area.

Well I think we are in agreement here. I was responding to Marty claiming that if any girls have a problem with somebody who is physically male in their shower they should be educated to be right thinking. That seems a bit...difficult to pull off unless the community and school board are on board.