Dept of Education declares that school must allow boy to shower with girls

[Tamas]

There is a "female identification" test - it's called a psychologist evaluation

So people are NOT free to choose their gender - it is determined for them.

Like sexual orientation, psychological gender is not a choice.

It's amazing how ignorant some of you guys are. 

What if the subject of the test declares the test result wrong? Will he/she be forced to adhere to the gender rules forced upon him/her by the psychologist?

It's not a "test" - basically, the psychologist evaluates whether the person is potentially transgendered or if they are just full of shit. Such tests are being done in every aspect of our lives (not just by psychologists, but all kinds of professionals) - I see no reason why this is a particular issue here.

Really? The issue is quite obvious. You are replacing one forced determination of gender (based on biology) with another forced determination of gender (based on a guy's opinion).

You cannot fight for individuals' right to determine their own gender while also forcing them to submit to third parties determining their genders.

[Syt]

You cannot fight for individuals' right to determine their own gender while also forcing them to submit to third parties determining their genders.

I think you're mistaking something - the individual isn't determining (i.e. choosing) their gender. It's already chosen and doesn't match their biological gender, therefore creating severe stress for them.

ID-ing this mismatch, however, can be tricky and I'm fine with a professional assessing it. I presume that in progressive countries, if a person feels they're "mis-identified" by a professional they have means of recourse (second opinions etc.). It's not just one psychologist flipping a coin.

[Tamas]

You cannot fight for individuals' right to determine their own gender while also forcing them to submit to third parties determining their genders.

I think you're mistaking something - the individual isn't determining (i.e. choosing) their gender. It's already chosen and doesn't match their biological gender, therefore creating severe stress for them.

ID-ing this mismatch, however, can be tricky and I'm fine with a professional assessing it. I presume that in progressive countries, if a person feels they're "mis-identified" by a professional they have means of recourse (second opinions etc.). It's not just one psychologist flipping a coin.

Still in theory it goes against the notion that each person is free to choose their gender. If you have that system in place, they are not. Sure, the system would not fail in 90% of cases, but that is also sort of true for the hardliner biological determination of gender

[Josquius]

I think you're missing something there though. The idea is that these people don't choose to be a different gender towhat they were born, it's that they were born the wrong gender to begin with and can't help being the way they are.

I don't see the problem. It's not psychologists going around and telling you what you are without your permission. It's someone claiming to be one thing and the psychologist doing a check to make sure they're telling the truth (as a tiny part of their general job of helping them deal with the situation)

[Valmy]

Yeah, it's one of the most moronic bigoted arguments I have ever heard and I have heard a lot.

See? I knew this was going to end well.

Really? Toni just made the most moronically bigoted thing you have ever heard? Is there any particular reason you couldn't have just voiced your disapproval with BB?

Besides, humour is at its best when it is aimed at those in power. It is at its shittiest when it is aimed at the weakest.

Wasn't Toni's joke directed at Federal Authorities? Seems like you do not like it when humor is used against those in power when they do something you like.

[Valmy]

It's someone claiming to be one thing and the psychologist doing a check to make sure they're telling the truth (as a tiny part of their general job of helping them deal with the situation)

Huh. Is this a thing? A gender test?

[Tamas]

I think you're missing something there though. The idea is that these people don't choose to be a different gender towhat they were born, it's that they were born the wrong gender to begin with and can't help being the way they are.

I don't see the problem. It's not psychologists going around and telling you what you are without your permission. It's someone claiming to be one thing and the psychologist doing a check to make sure they're telling the truth (as a tiny part of their general job of helping them deal with the situation)

I am not saying those persons CHOSE to be of different gender than their biological one. What even made you think I did that?


And I repeat: the problem is, that in your sequence of third party gender validation is:
-Person A claims to be of different gender than his/her biological one
-Appointed authority tests this claim and declares the claim to be true or untrue

Now there is a) no way on Earth step two is error-free b) even having such a check invalidates the whole freedom of sexuality thing

But let's forget as trivial things as morals and personal liberty and go back to point a) and continue the sequence:

-Third-person verdict on Person A's gender is received, it says that Person A is not in fact transgender despite his/her claims
-Person A disagrees and declares it so

What is the next step? There are only two options:
-Let Person A dismiss the verdict and proceed with his/her life as he/she was indeed the gender he/she claims to be. To stay in this current example, shower in female shower rooms as biological male. But I would like to emphasise this is just an example
-Force Person A to adhere to the authority's declaration on his/her gender, which I hopefully don't have to explain why is bad

[garbon]

Maybe because you keep writing about the idea that everyone is free to choose their gender.

[Tamas]

Maybe because you keep writing about the idea that everyone is free to choose their gender.

I am writing about everyone being free from others telling them their gender. There is a world of difference.

[Josephus]

I could foresee a lot of high school boys start claiming to identify as girls.

You know... I am not the most trans-friendly person around here,  But I don't foresee that in the least.

I imagine they'll need some sort of doctor/psychologist certificate, but yeah, I agree.

I think this is liberalism gone mad. The basic rule should be: Got a dick, shower with boys. He MAY feel uncomfortable, but what about the girls having to shower with a boy?

[garbon]

Maybe because you keep writing about the idea that everyone is free to choose their gender.

I am writing about everyone being free from others telling them their gender. There is a world of difference.

So maybe you should say that and not the phrase you keep repeating.

[Legbiter]

Besides, humour is at its best when it is aimed at those in power. It is at its shittiest when it is aimed at the weakest.

It's hilarious how you turn into a braindead SJW every time your Goodperson narcissistic construct scents Thoughtcrime and an opportunity to virtue-signal.

[garbon]

Oh good the resident idiot has appeared.

[Valmy]

Besides, humour is at its best when it is aimed at those in power. It is at its shittiest when it is aimed at the weakest.

It's hilarious how you turn into a braindead SJW every time your Goodperson narcissistic construct scents Thoughtcrime and an opportunity to virtue-signal.

[Josquius]

I am not saying those persons CHOSE to be of different gender than their biological one. What even made you think I did that?

Whether you believe people are free to choose their gender or not...you did say that.

And I repeat: the problem is, that in your sequence of third party gender validation is:
-Person A claims to be of different gender than his/her biological one
-Appointed authority tests this claim and declares the claim to be true or untrue

Now there is a) no way on Earth step two is error-free b) even having such a check invalidates the whole freedom of sexuality thing

For a)- there are few things in this world we can ensure are 100% error free. However we do have a lot of systems of checks in place that help keep things reasonably error free.
e.g. you need a driver's license to drive. There's still a lot of car accidents but less than there would be if any idiot could just drive at will.
In this particular case, there is a pretty good system in place for vetting and licensing mental health professionals.
For b) not really. You're perfectly free to go around calling yourself whatever you want without medical confirmation. If you want the legal associations of a change in status however then you need to get it legally confirmed. Kind of like marriage in a lot of places really.

But let's forget as trivial things as morals and personal liberty and go back to point a) and continue the sequence:

-Third-person verdict on Person A's gender is received, it says that Person A is not in fact transgender despite his/her claims
-Person A disagrees and declares it so

What is the next step? There are only two options:
-Let Person A dismiss the verdict and proceed with his/her life as he/she was indeed the gender he/she claims to be. To stay in this current example, shower in female shower rooms as biological male. But I would like to emphasise this is just an example
-Force Person A to adhere to the authority's declaration on his/her gender, which I hopefully don't have to explain why is bad

You're perfectly free to go around in a dress calling yourself Madam Tamasha.... but unless you've got the paperwork to prove it you can't expect the legal rights that go with this.
I think the marriage analogy is a pretty good one here. In civilized countries you can do whatever you want with whoever you want (proper consent providing)...but except in the cream of the civilized crop you won't get many of the rights of being a couple unless you get the paperwork.