Oldest(?) Quran fragments found in Birmingham.

[crazy canuck]

I don't think you get to have it both ways.  We only know about Jesus because of Greek writings from that area. \

No the Greek writings come later, and after the Jesus movement shifts from being a tiny Jewish messianic cult to an organization focused on proselytizing gentiles in the Greek-speaking world.  Paul spoke Greek but he was from Tarsus - a commercial city on the Med where Greek would be widely spoken - and not the Galilee.  The Gospels were not actually written by the evangelists they are ascribed to; thus, e.g., it is extremely unlikely Matthew or any apostle spoke Greek, much less were able to write it.

  Josephus, who was active about a generation after Jesus, could speak and write Greek, but he was unusually well educated and points out in his writings that his knowledge of Greek was rare among his people.

Yeah, that is my point.  The Gospels, written in Greek, came much later.  But there were Greek speakers and writers alive and well in the area at the time of Jesus.  Why no mention of this person who did such momentous things in any earlier Greek, Latin or other text?  The answer is as you state.  The Gospels are a creation of a later period and reflect a different view then what would have been proposed by a Jewish holy man named Jesus.   I think we actually agree with one another.  There may well have been a person named Jesus who preached at the beginning of the Common Era.  But that man has very little to do with the Jesus of the New Testament writings which were compiled and edited into what we now know as the Bible.

For Raz and Viper.  It is very unlikely that a Rabbi Jesus would have proclaimed himself to be God.  He may have proclaimed himself to be the Messiah, but that word had a very different meaning in the pre-Christian era. 

[The Minsky Moment]

But there were Greek speakers and writers alive and well in the area at the time of Jesus.  Why no mention of this person who did such momentous things in any earlier Greek, Latin or other text?  The answer is as you state. 

Two reasons:
1. As per above, there were few Greek speakers and very few Greeks writers in the area at the time of Jesus. 
2.  He would not have been perceived to have done momentous things.  Messianic claims or speculations were not that unusual.  Getting crucified as a criminal was nothing to write home about either.

There may well have been a person named Jesus who preached at the beginning of the Common Era.  But that man has very little to do with the Jesus of the New Testament writings which were compiled and edited into what we now know as the Bible.

For Raz and Viper.  It is very unlikely that a Rabbi Jesus would have proclaimed himself to be God.  He may have proclaimed himself to be the Messiah, but that word had a very different meaning in the pre-Christian era.

I mostly agree with that.  IMO there is probably a decent amount of stuff in the synoptic gospels that could reflect authentic traditions but the "spin" in the gospels themselves and the subsequent interpretation is distortive.

[Razgovory]

he did mistake a novel for a work of non-fiction once. 

what was the novel?

Some book on Operation Compass.  Despite the fact the book was labeled fiction and put in the fiction category by online sellers CC kept defending it.  A man's pride can be blinding.

[Valmy]

I don't remember the specifics but that was an amazing thread. One of the top 10 threads about Operation Compass in internet history.

[Queequeg]

I don't think you get to have it both ways.  We only know about Jesus because of Greek writings from that area. \

No the Greek writings come later, and after the Jesus movement shifts from being a tiny Jewish messianic cult to an organization focused on proselytizing gentiles in the Greek-speaking world.  Paul spoke Greek but he was from Tarsus - a commercial city on the Med where Greek would be widely spoken - and not the Galilee.  The Gospels were not actually written by the evangelists they are ascribed to; thus, e.g., it is extremely unlikely Matthew or any apostle spoke Greek, much less were able to write it.

  Josephus, who was active about a generation after Jesus, could speak and write Greek, but he was unusually well educated and points out in his writings that his knowledge of Greek was rare among his people.

Wasn't The Galilee itself poor but quite mixed? I listened to an iTunes U Stanford course on the historical Jesus and they talked quite a bit about how odd Galilee was compared to the rest of Israel. 

[Valmy]

I might have listened to that one as well. It is amazing what they can determine from limited evidence.

[Agelastus]

he did mistake a novel for a work of non-fiction once. 

what was the novel?

Some book on Operation Compass.  Despite the fact the book was labeled fiction and put in the fiction category by online sellers CC kept defending it.  A man's pride can be blinding.

I don't think it was the Compass thread - I thought he'd considered this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gates-Fire-Novel-Battle-Thermopylae/dp/0553812165/ref=la_B000AQ8R8Q_1_2_bnp_2_pap?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1438111700&sr=1-2 a valid source in another thread.

[Razgovory]

I think the Compass thread predates 2009 so it's no longer on record, but I did remind him of it in 2010, cause I'm an asshole.  Don't know about the Thermopylae book.  Might have missed.  There was another one where he insisted that Gibbon's Decline and Fall is still used by researchers.

[The Minsky Moment]

Wasn't The Galilee itself poor but quite mixed? I listened to an iTunes U Stanford course on the historical Jesus and they talked quite a bit about how odd Galilee was compared to the rest of Israel.

It was odd - it wasn't a traditional Israelite area.  It was conquered by one the Hasmoneans and converted.  That was about 150 years earlier but still significant.  There was a big city - Tiberias.  There was another lesser city not far from Nazareth.  Nazareth itself though was a dinky village.  Jesus was a laborer.  His followers were simple people.  He seems to have focused on simple people.  Capernaum is the most significant settlement that he seems to have been active in.  It was basically a fishing village.

[crazy canuck]

he did mistake a novel for a work of non-fiction once. 

what was the novel?

Some book on Operation Compass.  Despite the fact the book was labeled fiction and put in the fiction category by online sellers CC kept defending it.  A man's pride can be blinding.

I don't think it was the Compass thread - I thought he'd considered this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gates-Fire-Novel-Battle-Thermopylae/dp/0553812165/ref=la_B000AQ8R8Q_1_2_bnp_2_pap?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1438111700&sr=1-2 a valid source in another thread.

I can stand being attacked by Raz but really?

[grumbler]

CC claimed that a book supported his contention (which I contested) that the British were preparing to evacuate Cairo when the Italians invaded in 1940.  Turns out the book he was referencing was a novel "based on real events."  It wasn't a biggie, and AIR he conceded the point at that juncture.

[crazy canuck]

CC claimed that a book supported his contention (which I contested) that the British were preparing to evacuate Cairo when the Italians invaded in 1940.  Turns out the book he was referencing was a novel "based on real events."  It wasn't a biggie, and AIR he conceded the point at that juncture.

[Barrister]

CC claimed that a book supported his contention (which I contested) that the British were preparing to evacuate Cairo when the Italians invaded in 1940.  Turns out the book he was referencing was a novel "based on real events."  It wasn't a biggie, and AIR he conceded the point at that juncture.

grumbler coming to CC's defence?

Well now I have seen everything.

[grumbler]

grumbler coming to CC's defence?

Well now I have seen everything.

I am not attacking anyone or defending anyone.  Just stating the facts as I remember them.

[Razgovory]

CC claimed that a book supported his contention (which I contested) that the British were preparing to evacuate Cairo when the Italians invaded in 1940.  Turns out the book he was referencing was a novel "based on real events."  It wasn't a biggie, and AIR he conceded the point at that juncture.

grumbler coming to CC's defence?

Well now I have seen everything.

Grumbler balances his grudges.  A chance to let CC off the hook and make me look bad is one he can't pass up.