Greek Referendum Poll

[alfred russel]

Every article written about this should have a paragraph dedicated to reminding people that Greece is a Balkan country.

[Monoriu]

Every article written about this should have a paragraph dedicated to reminding people that Greece is a Balkan country.

What's wrong with Balkan countries?

[celedhring]

The problem with Spain, and I suspect this will be Greece's case too, is that the bulk of benefit payments are directly correlated to how much you have contributed to the system. So, for example, the higher your salary, the more you have paid into payroll taxes, and the higher your unemployment insurance will be. Same with pensions; the more you earn during your active years, the more you have paid into SS, and the higher your pension will be.

There is an upper limit to that though right?

Ours works the same way and there's a cap. High-earning people often stop paying SS taxes partway through the year because they hit the annual max contribution.

Incidentally this is one of the reasons why I get a good laugh when our conservative government crows about "reforms". Pushing retirement age to 67 and capping yearly pension increases are just accounting bandaids. Something more meaningful like looking at how pensions are calculated and how can we focus resources on those who need the most instead of wholesale cuts to the whole system? No man, that would be HARD.

[Grey Fox]

Every article written about this should have a paragraph dedicated to reminding people that Greece is a Balkan country.

What's wrong with Balkan countries?

No respect for the rule of law.

[alfred russel]

Every article written about this should have a paragraph dedicated to reminding people that Greece is a Balkan country.

What's wrong with Balkan countries?

No respect for the rule of law.

I was thinking more along the lines of "not really europe". I mean, if you start talking about countries like Albania, Macedonia, and Bosnia and Herzegovina not having the status of France, Germany, Spain, etc. in the European Project, very few freak out that you are undermining the project by having a Europe at Two Speeds or something.

Greece had a good run a bit more than 2,000 years ago, but that isn't a reason to think they are typical europeans now. This thinking isn't new: see the post WWI decision to give them a part of Anatolia, and look at what happened there.

[Valmy]

Greece should have marched on Constantinople instead.

[alfred russel]

Greece should have marched on Constantinople instead.

Instead they dicked around, committed some atrocities, their king got bit by a monkey, they started bickering amongst themselves, and then they got their butts spanked.

Basically what you would expect from a Balkan country given a windfall.

[Admiral Yi]

So as to understand the validity of your metric.  If half the time we see increasing revenues as a % of Austerity, then you metric still needs work.  We can't have "austerity" to mean " the way government functions almost all the time, can we?  That makes the word useless.

It definitely undercuts the thesis that austerity inevitably leads to catastrophe.

As I said before, feel free to explain what you think "real" austerity is.

[Razgovory]

So as to understand the validity of your metric.  If half the time we see increasing revenues as a % of Austerity, then you metric still needs work.  We can't have "austerity" to mean " the way government functions almost all the time, can we?  That makes the word useless.

It definitely undercuts the thesis that austerity inevitably leads to catastrophe.

As I said before, feel free to explain what you think "real" austerity is.

Those debt reduction schemes used by the governments of Greece, Italy, Ireland, Portugal, France, the UK, Germany and Spain, beginning in 2009.  This may not be the comprehensive definition, but seems the most Germaine to this discussion.

[Malthus]

Greece should have marched on Constantinople instead.

Instead they dicked around, committed some atrocities, their king got bit by a monkey, they started bickering amongst themselves, and then they got their butts spanked.

Basically what you would expect from a Balkan country given a windfall.

Never underestimate the monkey.

[Admiral Yi]

Those debt reduction schemes used by the governments of Greece, Italy, Ireland, Portugal, France, the UK, Germany and Spain, beginning in 2009.  This may not be the comprehensive definition, but seems the most Germaine to this discussion.

Does your concept of austerity attach to the schemes, or to the countries?

Because if it's the first, there's no reason to exclude countries like the US, who similarly reduced spending and/or raised taxes.

[alfred russel]

Greece should have marched on Constantinople instead.

Instead they dicked around, committed some atrocities, their king got bit by a monkey, they started bickering amongst themselves, and then they got their butts spanked.

Basically what you would expect from a Balkan country given a windfall.

Never underestimate the monkey.

Indeed. There is a case that the 2500 year history of Greeks in Western Anatolia was ended because of a monkey bite.

[Razgovory]

Those debt reduction schemes used by the governments of Greece, Italy, Ireland, Portugal, France, the UK, Germany and Spain, beginning in 2009.  This may not be the comprehensive definition, but seems the most Germaine to this discussion.

Does your concept of austerity attach to the schemes, or to the countries?

Because if it's the first, there's no reason to exclude countries like the US, who similarly reduced spending and/or raised taxes.

I think scale makes a difference.  Three guys who now have to pay slightly higher taxes doesn't really make austerity.  I would not consider the "fiscal cliff", austerity as it wasn't really a deliberate scheme but rather failure of compromise.  In a discussion about Greece and more broadly the Eurozone I think when we refer to Austerity we refer to Greece and more broadly the Eurozone or perhaps the European Union not the US having slightly higher tax revenue then it did the previous year.  So in this thread when someone says Austerity failed, they are talking the Greek debt reduction scheme or similar ones enacted in the EU and not the US reducing defict in 1998 or the personal austerity of monks.

[Monoriu]

Greek parliament has passed the reform bills.  Tsipras, as expected, relied on opposition support.  Some of his own MPs rebelled.

I wonder what makes the Greeks convinced that Grexit is the greater evil.  These are the people who elected an explicitly anti-austerity far left party to take power, held a referendum on the rescue package at the risk of angering everybody else in Europe, voted "no" in defiance, then within a week, folded to creditor demands that are even harsher than the original proposals.  They seem convinced that Grexit means ruin.  Maybe they are right, but what makes them think that way?

[Admiral Yi]

I think scale makes a difference.  Three guys who now have to pay slightly higher taxes doesn't really make austerity.  I would not consider the "fiscal cliff", austerity as it wasn't really a deliberate scheme but rather failure of compromise.  In a discussion about Greece and more broadly the Eurozone I think when we refer to Austerity we refer to Greece and more broadly the Eurozone or perhaps the European Union not the US having slightly higher tax revenue then it did the previous year.  So in this thread when someone says Austerity failed, they are talking the Greek debt reduction scheme or similar ones enacted in the EU and not the US reducing defict in 1998 or the personal austerity of monks.

If you want scale, how about an $800 billion stimulus package?

I don't see what difference a "deliberate scheme" vs. "failure of compromise" makes.  Aggregate demand is aggregate demand whether it's the result of a "deliberate scheme" or a "failure of compromise."

Furthermore, operating just with your own narrow definition of austerity, the UK has among the highest growth rates in Europe, it has stabilized debt/GDP at 90%, and it has preserved its credit rating and is currently paying about 1.5% on long term bonds.

So no, you can't say "austerity doesn't work."