Greek Referendum Poll

[Zanza]

The often-mentioned "German taxpayer" has a pretty clear opinion on whether the EU should have made more concessions to Greece.

[Iormlund]

Anyone who's young and with half a brain should get out. Probably they already have.

I haven't met Greeks in Germany, now that you mention it. Tons of Spaniards, Poles and Turks and a handful of people from the old Soviet block. But no Greeks yet.

[Duque de Bragança]

Anyone who's young and with half a brain should get out. Probably they already have.

I haven't met Greeks in Germany, now that you mention it. Tons of Spaniards, Poles and Turks and a handful of people from the old Soviet block. But no Greeks yet.

There are lots of them, unlike Austria.

[Zanza]

Anyone who's young and with half a brain should get out. Probably they already have.

I haven't met Greeks in Germany, now that you mention it. Tons of Spaniards, Poles and Turks and a handful of people from the old Soviet block. But no Greeks yet.

About 50k Greeks moved to Germany in the last five years. There are now 328k Greeks in Germany. Fifth biggest group of foreigners (Turks, Poles, Italians, Romanians are more numerous).

[viper37]

They should default, if only to weaken the banksters' cabal that runs Europe.



G.

if you think things are bad now, imagine with Greece unable to borrow for the next 2 years

[Martinus]

They should default, if only to weaken the banksters' cabal that runs Europe.



G.

if you think things are bad now, imagine with Greece unable to borrow for the next 2 years

Are you saying Greeks are able to borrow now?

[Martinus]

The often-mentioned "German taxpayer" has a pretty clear opinion on whether the EU should have made more concessions to Greece.

Perhaps the "German taxpayer" should ask why the losses of German banks, imprudently lending money to Greece, have been socialised?

[alfred russel]

Becoming Venezuela without oil?

Yeah in the sense of the Greeks will vote no, the aftermath of the vote is bungled by Syriza in the usual worst-case way and next month the Greek government will start paying salaries with it's own IOU's. A Venezuelan-style spiral of continual inflation and currency depreciation follows.

Anyone who's young and with half a brain should get out. Probably they already have.

Syriza served a purpose in discrediting the far left. But in Greece, the center right and center left has already been discredited. I'm certain the far right will be the most disastrous of the group in the unlikely event they get a turn.

[Zanza]

Perhaps the "German taxpayer" should ask why the losses of German banks, imprudently lending money to Greece, have been socialised?

Perhaps the German taxpayer did ask and didn't care nearly as much about that? We put in twice the money we currently have exposed to Greece into one bank, the Hypo Real Estate, alone and no one really gave a fuck.
The exposure that the German state now has to Greece is way higher than than what German banks had in 2010 (about 75 billion compared to 45 billion).

[Zanza]

Germany, but especially Italy and Spain suck at socializing losses. France on the other hand did marvelous.

[viper37]

It is grossly irresponsible, not to mention foolish, to have the plebiscite.  It removes any trust left between EU creditors and the Greek government.  It shoves a hugely complex problem at voters at unreasonably short notice.  The Greeks elected him to solve the problem.  Now that he can't solve the problem, he throws the problem back at the voters in way that people can't agree on what they are voting for.  There is a place for plebiscites in a democracy but they aren't supposed to be used in this fashion.

Democracy isn't contingent on the approval of accountants Mono...  The sovereign people of Greece will decide if they wish to go through with the 'Austerity Program' (TM) or not.  So far 'austerity' has been demonstrated to be beneficial only to the 'banksters' - not the people.  When Jean-Claude Juncker, head of European Commission, speaks of being 'betrayed' - he who as PM of Luxemburg helped large corporations avoid paying their income taxes - it rings false.  The Greeks should default on the entire debt, all 330B (more or less) of it.  That would leave them with some breathing space and *then* they'll have to clean their own house - on their own term.



G.

so far, most of the measures that Greece should have adopted have not been.  Even if they were, you don't go from bankrupt to billionaire in a few weeks.
If you look at our dear province, we are poorer than we were in the 1960s, we are poorer and less educated than most of our neighbours, the only US State comparable to us would be Mississipi, one of the poorest, yet we insist on doing the same thing we have been doing for the last 50 years with no results.

[The Larch]

Germany, but especially Italy and Spain suck at socializing losses. France on the other hand did marvelous.

That's because Eurozone countries ponied up money depending on their share of eurozone GDP, or something like that.

[Valmy]

The often-mentioned "German taxpayer" has a pretty clear opinion on whether the EU should have made more concessions to Greece.

Perhaps the "German taxpayer" should ask why the losses of German banks, imprudently lending money to Greece, have been socialised?

Marty comes out for no more lending to governments ever again. Austerity forever. Well that would solve debt problems but might have other unintended consequences Marty

[Admiral Yi]

Well let's see.  People don't live as long as governments.  When people die the debt must be paid.  Government debts can theoretically last indefinably.  Families can't raise taxes or sell bonds.  A government's debt is often to it's own people.  Households don't normally owe themselves money.  Debt can be quite beneficial to governments, the US took on the debts of it's member states to create credit.  I don't think a household could do this.

Dead people with no net worth don't have to pay their debts.*  Families can reallocate their income to different types of expenditure, just as states can reallocate their income to private consumption and government spending.  So what if families can't issue bonds?  Debt is debt.  The government doesn't owe money to itself in the case of domestically held debt; it owes it to individuals.  I don't know what you mean by "took on debt to create credit."

The real question (and I believe it was asked last time and someone disappeared), insights does the household analogy grant us?  None that I can see.

The insight it provides us is that in both cases you can borrow money now and live high on the hog, but eventually you have pay it back and live lower on the hog, or not pay it back and lose your ability to borrow.

[Admiral Yi]

Woops, forgot my footnote.

* Back when I was working for Student Loan Servicing, I got a call from a very old black women.  I think she was about 85.  She had just completed her degree, and wanted to know about repayment options.

Hoping that my call wasn't being monitored, I told her, in so many words, to just keep requesting forebearances until she kicked the can.