EU Immigration Crisis Megathread

[Razgovory]

I'm a little fuzzy on what "Islamist" means in this context as well.  Presumably something negative.

Islamism is to Islam what dominionism is to Christianity. Both are incompatible with liberal values, although islamism is more dangerous than dominionism, simply because Christianity offers more options for non-oppressive, non-violent interpretation than Islam does.

Dominionism doesn't actually exist.  People don't actually describe themselves as "Dominionist", It's a pejorative and a conspiracy theory.

[Martinus]

Do people describe themselves as islamist?

[Zanza]

In particular, I find the usage of the term Islamist somewhat fuzzy, so I'm not particularly keen on categorically closing off the option of engagement with Islamists until I know what definition is being used.

The German constitution has a concept called "liberal-democratic basic order" and that includes basic human rights and the basic organisation of the state as a secular, federal republic with democratic elections. I don't care if you don't like parts of it because of your religious (Islamists, Christian fundies, Scientologists ...) or ideological (Nazi, Commies...) worldview. In each case, your worldview makes you an enemy of our liberal-democratic basic order and I don't see any value in engaging such people. We need to protect our society from them and fight their attempts to change it towards their worldview.

Also, I'd note that engagement with - say - a confused 16 year old embracing extremist labels and rhetoric may in fact be pretty fruitful, while at the same time I'm perfectly at peace with having no engagement with people organizing and profiting from violent attacks on innocents.

Everybody is welcome back into the fold of said liberal-democratic order. If a confused 16-year old is willing to accept our values again, help him to leave the destructive environment he is in. But I don't want to engage with his confused values! That's a clear difference.

[Razgovory]

Do people describe themselves as islamist?

They probably have a word in Arabic.

[Martinus]

Do people describe themselves as islamist?

They probably have a word in Arabic.

That doesn't answer my question. You most likely have no idea and it just shows how your response to my post about dominionism and how it differs from islamism was pulled out of your ass.

[Razgovory]

Do people describe themselves as islamist?

They probably have a word in Arabic.

That doesn't answer my question. You most likely have no idea and it just shows how your response to my post about dominionism and how it differs from islamism was pulled out of your ass.

I don't know Arabic, but I can safely say whatever Islamism is it it's not like Dominionism because Dominionism doesn't actually exist.  It's a conspiracy theory that had some currency during the Bush administration.  Basically it was the belief that there was a secret plot to turn America into a Theocracy.  It's up there with the idea homosexuals are plotting to turn  children gay, or Jews control Capitalism and Communism and are trying to tear down civilization.

[Razgovory]

On second thought Marty might have point.  Perhaps Islamism is like Dominionism in that it is not a useful term.  I mean we use it to describe Wahbism in Saudi Arabia as well the ideology of Iran despite the fact that both ideologies run at cross purposes.

What are the Fundamental beliefs of Islam and the Fundamental beliefs of Islamism?  What ideas are required to be a Muslim and what are the ideas that required to be an Islamist?

[Capetan Mihali]

It's easy to forget that once social housing, even high-rises, were popular during the Glorious Thirties, so the people living there would not mess them up.

Just because they were popular with those in power doesn't mean they were ever a good idea.  Godard had a film criticizing them in 1967, IIRC.  Not to mention that they were principally a "solution" to the favelas that the guest-workers were living in during the 50s.

The same ideology held sway in the US and is now thoroughly discredited.  Look at Cabrini Green for one notorious example.

Wrong. Those living there liked them, but they had not entitlement so close after the war, not to mention no identity politics, as most were French and/or European. Cities had to be rebuild after the war, immigrants or no immigrants. And quickly, which explains lots of the problems appearing after. There was even a name for it, taken from one of the largest suburbs near Paris, Sarcelles: sarcellite. No "guest worker" issue there. Hint: DSK. .)

As for Godard, well '67 was the beginning of his Mao period so what movie are you thinking about? I don't think it's la Chinoise.  Week-End? Even Godard said it was a caricature.

Besides, in the '50s you had not a majority of immigrants in the "grand ensembles. It was still the '50s, the Communist party reigned supreme in the "banlieues rouges". The Athenes charter was the model for these housing projects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens_Charter. Influenced by Le Corbusier, who himself has a few not-so-good banlieues designed (ahem). Pre-war somewhat utopian designs which were an inspiration from the France and the UK to the USSR. Yes, there is a reason why the housing projects (high-rises- look alike.

Furthermore, as strict marxists the PCF wanted no immigrants to reinforce the reserve army of labour, as per capitalist practices, still in use today. PCF betrayed in the mid '80S thanks to Juquin.
The real spike of immigrants started only at the end of the 50s, with family regrouping only starting from '74-75 (bloody Chirac!).

The US situation is too different to compare with the French one. Public transport, different city organisations since "inner cities" are all the chic here (it's central!), different space constraints.

Well, what this all amounts to is that the French ruling class made a big mistake in building the banlieues.  But the high-rise social housing apartment buildings in the banlieues are there now.  And there appears to be a strong desire to demonize the inhabitants of these shitty projects rather than an equally strong desire to build better social housing. 

I was long-time friends with a (white, "French") Frenchman who had lived in social housing (where he was in a small white minority -- I think his residence there had to do with having free or heavily-discounted rent as a teacher on government pay) in the Grenoble banlieues before coming to the US. 

When I asked him about his life in France, he casually described having broken TVs thrown at him from 10 stories above as he walked into the building, heading off to work only to find to his humble Peugot ruined by an iron cauldron, soup intact, that had been tossed onto it from the same height or higher, being beaten to the ground by 4 or 5 guys on a couple of occasions. 

And of course the piss-stained stairwells, broken elevators, graffiti covering every surface in sight, etc.  But: 1) none of this is unique to the French experience -- I think any US project-dweller would be nodding right along; and 2) my friend remained quite left in his politics (at least 10 years ago), since although he had personally experienced the shittiness of life in 1st- or 2nd-generation immigrant communities, he could see the structural factors that kept this status quo in place.

(I was thinking of Two or Three Things I Know About Her, FWIW.)  (And I also completely understand the PCF's position against immigration driving down wages/conditions; something that's also not as unfamiliar to the US, in its labor history [and labor present], as you might think.)

[Duque de Bragança]

Well, what this all amounts to is that the French ruling class made a big mistake in building the banlieues.  But the high-rise social housing apartment buildings in the banlieues are there now.  And there appears to be a strong desire to demonize the inhabitants of these shitty projects rather than an equally strong desire to build better social housing. 

Wrong, there's lots of money being injected in urban renewal and in local NGOs. After a few years, given the low maintenance and care shown by the local tenants, it's a mess again. The people in the poor countryside, poorer than the banlieues, would love to get some renewal money. They don't get bus lines or bus stop. So they cannot have bus stops burning as a week-end hobby.
There's also some areas where the drug laws are not strongly enforced to buy peace along with a closed eye to islamisation.

I was long-time friends with a (white, "French") Frenchman who had lived in social housing (where he was in a small white minority -- I think his residence there had to do with having free or heavily-discounted rent as a teacher on government pay) in the Grenoble banlieues before coming to the US. 

When I asked him about his life in France, he casually described having broken TVs thrown at him from 10 stories above as he walked into the building, heading off to work only to find to his humble Peugot ruined by an iron cauldron, soup intact, that had been tossed onto it from the same height or higher, being beaten to the ground by 4 or 5 guys on a couple of occasions. 

And of course the piss-stained stairwells, broken elevators, graffiti covering every surface in sight, etc.  But: 1) none of this is unique to the French experience -- I think any US project-dweller would be nodding right along; and 2) my friend remained quite left in his politics (at least 10 years ago), since although he had personally experienced the shittiness of life in 1st- or 2nd-generation immigrant communities, he could see the structural factors that kept this status quo in place.

Apart from going to the US (now that's a left-winger !  ), that's typical. White flight from the banlieues. In France, this means going to the outer periphery of cities beyond the banlieues, in some former countryside areas.

(I was thinking of Two or Three Things I Know About Her, FWIW.)  (And I also completely understand the PCF's position against immigration driving down wages/conditions; something that's also not as unfamiliar to the US, in its labor history [and labor present], as you might think.)

A movie showing the high-rises were not meant specifically for immigrants, an improvement of very bad housing conditions since they were replacing slums. Of course, it was not as rosy as planned and Godard has a point against consumerism. Nothing to do with the banlieue problems nowadays though; Glorious Thirties problems.

[Martinus]

Poland has shitty high-rise buildings in suburbs inhabited by people earning minimum wage and/or unemployed.

Yet noone blows up the subway or shoots up concert halls. I wonder why. 

[The Brain]

Poland has shitty high-rise buildings in suburbs inhabited by people earning minimum wage and/or unemployed.

Yet noone blows up the subway or shoots up concert halls. I wonder why. 

Poles are not oppressed.

[dps]

Poland has shitty high-rise buildings in suburbs inhabited by people earning minimum wage and/or unemployed.

Yet noone blows up the subway or shoots up concert halls. I wonder why. 

Poles are not oppressed.

And too dumb to know how to use explosives.

[Razgovory]

Poland has shitty high-rise buildings in suburbs inhabited by people earning minimum wage and/or unemployed.

Yet noone blows up the subway or shoots up concert halls. I wonder why. 

Poland no longer has a large minority of second class citizens ultimately from the middle east.  For some reason.

[Martinus]

Poland has shitty high-rise buildings in suburbs inhabited by people earning minimum wage and/or unemployed.

Yet noone blows up the subway or shoots up concert halls. I wonder why. 

Poland no longer has a large minority of second class citizens ultimately from the middle east.  For some reason.

I do hope the French can protect themselves without a need for a genocide.

[Zanza]

A piece on continent wide movement to the right:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/05/22/world/europe/europe-right-wing-austria-hungary.html