EU Immigration Crisis Megathread

[Valmy]

100% assimilation. Complete and total, and their descendants today are as American as American can be - and American culture to the extent it changed at all changed in a completely positive way. Now we have hot Chinese-American women and fucked up American-Chinese food.

The process might be messy, but the outcome is clear and a win for "our" side.

The side of the horrors of cultural genocide and appropriation Oops I mean trauma. Deep trauma.

But seriously this is not just them. Virtually every immigrant community from before WWII has done this. I do not understand the strong nativism in this country, it is so nonsensical for numerous reasons.

[Tamas]

I take your Special Case: America bet and raise it with a Western Roman Empire. All the Germans wanted was to live under safety, and the prosperity of the Roman Empire. Yet they managed to dilute its cohesion and make it cease to exist.


And in Europe this is all academic debate: regardless of assimilation being possible or not, dumping this cultural challenge in this size on the general population was an absolutely fucked up idea. RIght-wingers will take over governments everywhere, and we will be fucked, and especially the Muslim population will be fucked.

[Berkut]

100% assimilation. Complete and total, and their descendants today are as American as American can be - and American culture to the extent it changed at all changed in a completely positive way. Now we have hot Chinese-American women and fucked up American-Chinese food.

The process might be messy, but the outcome is clear and a win for "our" side.

The side of the horrors of cultural genocide and appropriation Oops I mean trauma. Deep trauma.

But seriously this is not just them. Virtually every immigrant community from before WWII has done this. I do not understand the strong nativism in this country, it is so nonsensical for numerous reasons.

Indeed, I was only using them as an example.

I have no concern whatsoever about immigrants imposing their own culture on my own. I am supremely confident, even arrogant, about the fact that the reason they want to come here in the first place is a direct result of the supremacy of our culture, in fact.

We are far from perfect, but a damn site closer than just about any Middle Eastern or African country where people are fleeing in droves.

[Berkut]

I take your Special Case: America bet and raise it with a Western Roman Empire. All the Germans wanted was to live under safety, and the prosperity of the Roman Empire. Yet they managed to dilute its cohesion and make it cease to exist.

That shows a rather shallow understanding of Roman history. They didn't fail because of immigrants, they failed because of the choices they made themselves about how to structure their economy and society, and their unwillingness to fix it even when it was obviously not workable.

A bunch of goths invading and fucking them up was a symptom of the rot in Roman culture, not the cause of the rot.

If you think Europe is fundamentally broken, such that this kind of immigration will shatter them, then the problem is not really the immigration in any case.

[Valmy]

I take your Special Case: America bet and raise it with a Western Roman Empire. All the Germans wanted was to live under safety, and the prosperity of the Roman Empire. Yet they managed to dilute its cohesion and make it cease to exist.

That shows a rather shallow understanding of Roman history. They didn't fail because of immigrants, they failed because of the choices they made themselves about how to structure their economy and society, and their unwillingness to fix it even when it was obviously not workable.

A bunch of goths invading and fucking them up was a symptom of the rot in Roman culture, not the cause of the rot.

If you think Europe is fundamentally broken, such that this kind of immigration will shatter them, then the problem is not really the immigration in any case.

I completely disagree they fundamentally changed it numerous ways after the crisis of the third century. Besides it is not like obvious solutions to their problems were presenting themselves.

[Jacob]

this isn't immigration, this is population-replacement. And my attitude to islam has been more or less the same for decades: namely that the world is better of without it. If immigrants adapt then they're free to come, but not all at once cause that's asking for troubles.

Thanks, that's what I was wondering. It's not something I noticed on your part until these last few years. I guess we didn't have as much cause to talk about it.

[Berkut]

I take your Special Case: America bet and raise it with a Western Roman Empire. All the Germans wanted was to live under safety, and the prosperity of the Roman Empire. Yet they managed to dilute its cohesion and make it cease to exist.

That shows a rather shallow understanding of Roman history. They didn't fail because of immigrants, they failed because of the choices they made themselves about how to structure their economy and society, and their unwillingness to fix it even when it was obviously not workable.

A bunch of goths invading and fucking them up was a symptom of the rot in Roman culture, not the cause of the rot.

If you think Europe is fundamentally broken, such that this kind of immigration will shatter them, then the problem is not really the immigration in any case.

I completely disagree they fundamentally changed it numerous ways after the crisis of the third century. Besides it is not like obvious solutions to their problems were presenting themselves.

None of their changes actually addressed the problems though. They re-arranged deck chairs in the hopes that might patch the hole in the hull.

And I think the solutions were in fact obvious - what was not obvious was how to actually implement them in a society where the people benefitting from the fucked up setup are the same people who have the power to fix it, but only at the expense of their own wealth and control.

THAT was not obvious then, and sadly, it isn't obvious now.

[Jacob]

I take your Special Case: America bet and raise it with a Western Roman Empire. All the Germans wanted was to live under safety, and the prosperity of the Roman Empire. Yet they managed to dilute its cohesion and make it cease to exist.


And in Europe this is all academic debate: regardless of assimilation being possible or not, dumping this cultural challenge in this size on the general population was an absolutely fucked up idea. RIght-wingers will take over governments everywhere, and we will be fucked, and especially the Muslim population will be fucked.

I understand there were a few actual battles involved.

Once immigrants and refugees start organizing actual armies to fight against the states they wish to settle in to claim the right to settle and rule, then the Roman Empire parallels could be germane. Otherwise, it does seem a little hyperbolic at this point.

[Tamas]

they failed because of the choices they made themselves about how to structure their economy and society, and their unwillingness to fix it even when it was obviously not workable.

well we ARE talking about the EU here

[frunk]

And in Europe this is all academic debate: regardless of assimilation being possible or not, dumping this cultural challenge in this size on the general population was an absolutely fucked up idea. RIght-wingers will take over governments everywhere, and we will be fucked, and especially the Muslim population will be fucked.

That's the thing that gets me, this isn't an unmanageable number of people for the population of Europe.  Short term it is a serious logistics issue (including housing, feeding, policing, integrating), long term this isn't that many people relative to either the total population or even the population of immigrants to Europe over the past 20 years.  Demographically this is a migration that should be encouraged, many European countries are dealing with aging populations and could benefit from an influx of youth.  To let a temporary logistical problem drive long term political decisions is horribly short sighted.

[Valmy]

And I think the solutions were in fact obvious - what was not obvious was how to actually implement them in a society where the people benefitting from the fucked up setup are the same people who have the power to fix it, but only at the expense of their own wealth and control.

Intriguing. Tell me more.

[The Brain]

A healthy society can absorb fairly large numbers of unskilled and semi-hostile immigrants. Sweden isn't healthy though. It has AIDS.

[Razgovory]

I take your Special Case: America bet and raise it with a Western Roman Empire. All the Germans wanted was to live under safety, and the prosperity of the Roman Empire. Yet they managed to dilute its cohesion and make it cease to exist.


And in Europe this is all academic debate: regardless of assimilation being possible or not, dumping this cultural challenge in this size on the general population was an absolutely fucked up idea. RIght-wingers will take over governments everywhere, and we will be fucked, and especially the Muslim population will be fucked.

That is fucking stupid.  You are comparing industrial societies existing now to a civil war prone iron age state of which records are rather sketchy.  The UK adsorbed a large number of Polish-Russian Jews, Hell they tolerate you, and that's saying something.

[Razgovory]

Honest question:  Have there been any cases of women being groped at evening concerts prior to the Syrian refugee crisis.

[Malthus]

100% assimilation. Complete and total, and their descendants today are as American as American can be - and American culture to the extent it changed at all changed in a completely positive way. Now we have hot Chinese-American women and fucked up American-Chinese food.

The process might be messy, but the outcome is clear and a win for "our" side.

The side of the horrors of cultural genocide and appropriation Oops I mean trauma. Deep trauma.

But seriously this is not just them. Virtually every immigrant community from before WWII has done this. I do not understand the strong nativism in this country, it is so nonsensical for numerous reasons.

I had to bite my lip at Ukrainian Christmas. My mother in law, no doubt after reading some right wing tabloids, was going on about the dangers to Canadian culture of letting in "so many" refugees, and how their "foreign ways" would be a challenge, as they would "refuse to assimilate".

This, from a woman who was a refugee herself, and on an occasion when we were celebrating Christmas - at her insistence - in January -- complete with prayers and the like in Ukrainian.  Canadian society is, I think, pretty elastic.   

[I was thinking 'all will be okay if their hott daughters grow up to marry Jews' ...  ]