White woman pretends to be black for prestige

[Capetan Mihali]

I've been watching a lot of Douglas Sirk movies.  They're all pretty swell.  I don't know if my favorite so far is All That Heaven Allows or Magnificent Obsession.

I realize side conversations are rude.... but with some Sirk classics under your belt I'd try getting into the later, higher-budget, and more 'melodramatic' films Fassbinder made c. 1978-1982 to see how a cinematic style can be grasped entirely, isolated, and displaced in an oddly natural way.  Todd Haynes does a good Douglas Sirk from time to time, you can't knock it.

[garbon]

Raz, not going to respond to you line by line - enough to say that "fat acceptance" and obesity are different things to transgenderism. Being fat is not a part of your identity the same way gender, sexuality or religion are. It's more akin to being a cutter, an alcoholic or a sex addict. So glorifying it is both harmful for yourself and for others as it gives a bad example. Noone has become gay or transgendered by "conversion" - but people do tend become obese by following others' lifestyles.

It sounds like you are just deciding what things you want to say are someone's identity and things that are not. After all, a person can be an alcoholic yet refrain from further drinking much in the same way that you could be a homosexual and yet refrain from having gay sex.

Again, as I said to dps earlier, this could be a mind-provoking analogy in some abstract academic debate, if we did not have the body of psychiatry and psychology telling us these things are not comparable, and one is a part of your identity while the other is a disorder.

?  This is a weird appeal to authority since Transsexualism is a recognized mental illness.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder  It's a little odd that it's thrown in with LGB issues since the pathology seems different.  Homosexuality has to do with sexual attraction while Transexualism seems to be a form of body dysmorphism.

Of course there is now a lot of discussion as to whether it should be considered a disorder.

[Martinus]

Raz, not going to respond to you line by line - enough to say that "fat acceptance" and obesity are different things to transgenderism. Being fat is not a part of your identity the same way gender, sexuality or religion are. It's more akin to being a cutter, an alcoholic or a sex addict. So glorifying it is both harmful for yourself and for others as it gives a bad example. Noone has become gay or transgendered by "conversion" - but people do tend become obese by following others' lifestyles.

It sounds like you are just deciding what things you want to say are someone's identity and things that are not. After all, a person can be an alcoholic yet refrain from further drinking much in the same way that you could be a homosexual and yet refrain from having gay sex.

Again, as I said to dps earlier, this could be a mind-provoking analogy in some abstract academic debate, if we did not have the body of psychiatry and psychology telling us these things are not comparable, and one is a part of your identity while the other is a disorder.

?  This is a weird appeal to authority since Transsexualism is a recognized mental illness.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder  It's a little odd that it's thrown in with LGB issues since the pathology seems different.  Homosexuality has to do with sexual attraction while Transexualism seems to be a form of body dysmorphism.

Yes but the consensus is that the proper treatment of transsexualism is to have a gender reassignment surgery.

[Razgovory]

Of course there is now a lot of discussion as to whether it should be considered a disorder.

Yes, by activists.  You can find that sort of thing about all kinds of disorders.  I do not think it's a good thing when medicine is influenced by popular opinions and activists with an axe to grind.  See the anti-vaccine movement.

[Capetan Mihali]

This woman's transformation is kind of interesting to me on a personal level.

Like her I was blonde and blue-eyed Aryan poster baby.  But, similarly, my complexion continue to darken as I aged, my hair (especially after puberty) got curly and coarse, and my other features were kind of unremarkable (i.e. I didn't look like a Levantine sporting a Jewfro.

During the period when I was about 17-22, quite a few people actually came up and asked me if I was part-black.  Mostly white people -- I recall ending up at a small party in the apartment of some NYU students while I was in the city. One girl, a well-attired blonde who hadn't spoken to me before, turned to me and asked: "What race are you?"  I wasn't really prepared for that question. "White," I replied, "I'm white."  But this didn't seem to satisfy her.  She seemed lost in thought for a few seconds before trying again: "Really?  Are you sure?"  I hated to disappoint but I had to answer in the affirmative. "You're not even like a quarter black?  Or an eighth?"  I left her momentarily crestfallen and a little cross with me, but the drinks and conviviality soon spirited her away, and that was our whole conversation.

But there were some non-white people who asked me as well, mainly older black ladies too -- during a 12-minute break at our telemarketing workplace, I was having cookies and coffee in the office kitchen with a 50ish black coworker I was friendly with, when she segued into asking: "What's your ancestry?  Do you happen to be mulatto at all?  I've been thinking about it for a while, and you kind of look that way.  Or are you Sicilian?"  I can't remember what I answered, probably just mumbled something about immigrants, but she really was excited to get to the point: "My grandbaby's a mulatto, and she's like you, you know? -- real light.  She looks so great when she does her dance recitals..."  It was sad.

I let the opportunity pass as years of desperate living have given me a racially unmistakable pallor and my hair has straightened out to a degree.  But if I'd taken the hint at the time, I might have been able to revamp myself racially in Eastern Washington?  Who knows?..

[Valmy]

Race in America man. It's weird.

I just hope people do not think her identifying as black is the issue. It is her blatant lies and attacks on innocent people.

[Razgovory]

Yes but the consensus is that the proper treatment of transsexualism is to have a gender reassignment surgery.

Er, not always.  It really depends on the evaluation.  It's  more of an extreme set of procedures caused by lack of efficacy in treatment.  Invasive surgeries and hormone therapies are not exactly desirable.  If a pill was invented tomorrow that could clear up this form of body dysmophia then that would become the preferred treatment. 

There is a similar disorder where people are unhappy with parts of their own bodies and desire amputations.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder  Hacking off limbs is a treatment, but a less then perfect one.

It seems odd that transsexualism piggy backed onto the gay rights bandwagon since they seem different at a fundamental level.

[Caliga]

CM, while I could certainly be wrong, I just assumed she was using sunless tanner.  In some photos her skin seems to have the slight orange tinge you'd expect from that.

[Valmy]

To assume a totally new identity (even if it's motivated by some kind of personal gain) and in the process alienate your family suggests mental health issues to me... and whatever is there can't be helped by the worldwide media pressure and scrutiny.

Not necessarily. Especially regarding the part about alienating your family - if your lifestyle choices end up alienating your family, it could be your family, not you, who have mental issues.

I get where you are coming from here Marty. But rejecting all your family and friends and taking on some new identity is typical with joining cults and that kind of thing and other sorts of mental breaks. So I think that is what Cal is saying.

[Caliga]

Well, from what I've read about her family, they are certainly... different.

[garbon]

Of course there is now a lot of discussion as to whether it should be considered a disorder.

Yes, by activists.  You can find that sort of thing about all kinds of disorders.  I do not think it's a good thing when medicine is influenced by popular opinions and activists with an axe to grind.  See the anti-vaccine movement.

What's considered a disorder in the DSM is constantly evolving. I don't really take issue with that / glad that they evolved past thinking of homosexuality as a disorder.

[garbon]

There is a similar disorder where people are unhappy with parts of their own bodies and desire amputations.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder  Hacking off limbs is a treatment, but a less then perfect one.

I thought of you when I read this last week:

http://www.thestranger.com/columns/savage-love/2015/06/10/22354403/savage-love

A big congrats to Caitlyn Jenner on her big reveal and lovely Vanity Fair cover! But I am having a crisis of conscience. On one hand, I support a person's right to be whoever the heck they want to be. You want to wear women's clothing and use makeup and style your hair? You look fabulous! You want to carry a pillow around with an anime character on it and get married to it, like a guy in Korea did? Congrats! You want to collect creepy lifelike dolls and push them around in a stroller, like a woman on Staten Island does? Great! But I'm confused where we draw the line. When a thin person believes they're "fat" and then dangerously restricts their food intake, we can have that person committed. Most doctors won't amputate your arm simply because you feel you were meant to be an amputee. But when a man decides that he should be a woman (or vice versa), we will surgically remove healthy body parts to suit that particular desire. Of course, we modify/enhance/surgically alter other body parts all the time. I guess I'm confused. Could you shine some light on this for me? I want to be less conflicted about sex-reassignment surgery.

No Surgery For Me

Gender identity, unlike marrying a pillow or pushing a doll around in a stroller, is not an affectation or an eccentricity or plain ol' batshittery. Gender identity goes to the core of who we are and how we wish to be—how we fundamentally need to be—perceived by others. Take it away, Human Rights Campaign:

"The term 'gender identity,' distinct from the term 'sexual orientation,' refers to a person's innate, deeply felt psychological identification as a man, woman, or some other gender, which may or may not correspond to the sex assigned to them at birth... Transitioning is the process some transgender people go through to begin living as the gender with which they identify, rather than the sex assigned to them at birth. This may or may not include hormone therapy, sex-reassignment surgery, and other medical procedures."

Unlike people who have healthy limbs amputated (which some doctors will do, if only to prevent people with "body integrity identity disorder" from amputating their own limbs) or thin people starving themselves to death because they think they're fat, transgender people who embrace their gender identities and take steps toward transitioning are almost always happier and healthier as a result. That said, transitioning is not a panacea. Just as coming out of the closet isn't the end of a gay person's struggles or troubles, transitioning—which may or may not involve surgery and/or hormones—won't protect a trans person from discrimination or violence, or resolve other personal or mental-health issues that may exist.

You seem pretty concerned about the surgical removal of healthy body parts. To which I would say: Other people's bodies—and other people's body parts—are theirs, not yours. And if an individual wants or needs to change or even remove some part(s) of their body to be who they are or to be happy or healthy, I'm sure you would agree that they should have that right. Again, not all trans people get surgery, top or bottom, and many trans people change everything else (they take hormones, they get top surgery) but opt to stick with the genitals they were born with. (The ones they were born with tend to work better than the ones that can currently be constructed for them.) But unless you're trans yourself, currently sleeping with a trans person, or about to sleep with a trans person, NSFM, it's really none of your business what any individual trans person elects to change.

For me, it boils down to letting people be who they are and do what they want. Sometimes people do things for what can seem like silly and/or mystifying reasons (marry pillows, grow beards, vote Republican), while sometimes people—sometimes even the same people—do things for very sound and serious reasons (come out, alter their bodies, vote Democrat). Unless someone else's choices impact you in a real, immediate, and material way—unless someone wants to marry your pillow or wants to surgically alter your body or wants to persecute you politically or economically—there's no conflict for you to resolve.

Accept that you won't always understand all of the choices that other people make about their sexualities or gender identities—or their partners or their hobbies or their whatevers—and try to strike the right balance between minding your own business and embracing/celebrating the infinite diversity of the human experience.

[Razgovory]

Of course there is now a lot of discussion as to whether it should be considered a disorder.

Yes, by activists.  You can find that sort of thing about all kinds of disorders.  I do not think it's a good thing when medicine is influenced by popular opinions and activists with an axe to grind.  See the anti-vaccine movement.

What's considered a disorder in the DSM is constantly evolving. I don't really take issue with that / glad that they evolved past thinking of homosexuality as a disorder.

Why are you glad?

[Razgovory]

There is a similar disorder where people are unhappy with parts of their own bodies and desire amputations.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder  Hacking off limbs is a treatment, but a less then perfect one.

I thought of you when I read this last week:

http://www.thestranger.com/columns/savage-love/2015/06/10/22354403/savage-love

A big congrats to Caitlyn Jenner on her big reveal and lovely Vanity Fair cover! But I am having a crisis of conscience. On one hand, I support a person's right to be whoever the heck they want to be. You want to wear women's clothing and use makeup and style your hair? You look fabulous! You want to carry a pillow around with an anime character on it and get married to it, like a guy in Korea did? Congrats! You want to collect creepy lifelike dolls and push them around in a stroller, like a woman on Staten Island does? Great! But I'm confused where we draw the line. When a thin person believes they're "fat" and then dangerously restricts their food intake, we can have that person committed. Most doctors won't amputate your arm simply because you feel you were meant to be an amputee. But when a man decides that he should be a woman (or vice versa), we will surgically remove healthy body parts to suit that particular desire. Of course, we modify/enhance/surgically alter other body parts all the time. I guess I'm confused. Could you shine some light on this for me? I want to be less conflicted about sex-reassignment surgery.

No Surgery For Me

Gender identity, unlike marrying a pillow or pushing a doll around in a stroller, is not an affectation or an eccentricity or plain ol' batshittery. Gender identity goes to the core of who we are and how we wish to be—how we fundamentally need to be—perceived by others. Take it away, Human Rights Campaign:

"The term 'gender identity,' distinct from the term 'sexual orientation,' refers to a person's innate, deeply felt psychological identification as a man, woman, or some other gender, which may or may not correspond to the sex assigned to them at birth... Transitioning is the process some transgender people go through to begin living as the gender with which they identify, rather than the sex assigned to them at birth. This may or may not include hormone therapy, sex-reassignment surgery, and other medical procedures."

Unlike people who have healthy limbs amputated (which some doctors will do, if only to prevent people with "body integrity identity disorder" from amputating their own limbs) or thin people starving themselves to death because they think they're fat, transgender people who embrace their gender identities and take steps toward transitioning are almost always happier and healthier as a result. That said, transitioning is not a panacea. Just as coming out of the closet isn't the end of a gay person's struggles or troubles, transitioning—which may or may not involve surgery and/or hormones—won't protect a trans person from discrimination or violence, or resolve other personal or mental-health issues that may exist.

You seem pretty concerned about the surgical removal of healthy body parts. To which I would say: Other people's bodies—and other people's body parts—are theirs, not yours. And if an individual wants or needs to change or even remove some part(s) of their body to be who they are or to be happy or healthy, I'm sure you would agree that they should have that right. Again, not all trans people get surgery, top or bottom, and many trans people change everything else (they take hormones, they get top surgery) but opt to stick with the genitals they were born with. (The ones they were born with tend to work better than the ones that can currently be constructed for them.) But unless you're trans yourself, currently sleeping with a trans person, or about to sleep with a trans person, NSFM, it's really none of your business what any individual trans person elects to change.

For me, it boils down to letting people be who they are and do what they want. Sometimes people do things for what can seem like silly and/or mystifying reasons (marry pillows, grow beards, vote Republican), while sometimes people—sometimes even the same people—do things for very sound and serious reasons (come out, alter their bodies, vote Democrat). Unless someone else's choices impact you in a real, immediate, and material way—unless someone wants to marry your pillow or wants to surgically alter your body or wants to persecute you politically or economically—there's no conflict for you to resolve.

Accept that you won't always understand all of the choices that other people make about their sexualities or gender identities—or their partners or their hobbies or their whatevers—and try to strike the right balance between minding your own business and embracing/celebrating the infinite diversity of the human experience.

It's nice that you think of me.

[derspiess]

On a related note, I mentioned to several lesbian acquaintances that I'm so glad man-hating is no longer the defining characteristic of lesbianism.  They're so much better company now.

That is pretty nice.  I was talking to a couple at a brewery a while back and they were almost too friendly.  Except for when one of them kept telling this 'hilarious' story of a guy who accidentally cut his dick off when he tried to trim hedges with a lawnmower.  Took me a while to get her to talk about something else (golf-- softball didn't work).