Polish leaders outraged over FBI head Holocaust remarks

[Martinus]

Were those guys embraced back into the fold after the war, or raped and sent west?

A bit of both.

Ethnic Germans were definitely raped and sent West. Silesians and Kaszubians were allowed to stay (except for Volksdeutsches, i.e. those who signed up to become German citizens - these were frequently executed for treason, if they did not manage to escape) but suppressing their autonomic and ethnic tendencies was what the Polish state was doing - often with brutality - for the next few decades after the war.

So, having a "grandpa in Wehrmacht" would be a well hidden family secret for a long while (in fact, it was something PIS tried to pin on Tusk - a Kashubian - during the last elections - but it turned out not to be true).

Silesian autonomy movement is now on the rise again but it is still very weak (I think only something like 800,000 people declared themselves to be Silesians - next to, not instead of Polish - during the last census few years ago and they were promptly told off by the Supreme Court who told them "there is no such thing as a Silesian").

We are one hell of a homogenous nation right now. Thanks, Hitler and Stalin.

[Berkut]

My knowledge is shallow at best, but I was under the understanding that the Poles were pretty anti-Semitic themselves, pre-war, and there were examples aplenty of willing or even enthusiastic cooperation with the Nazi's when it came to rounding up the Jews and shoving them into the ghettos, for example. Kind of a "Well, it sucks to be occupied by the Nazi's, but at least they are taking care of these damn Jews..." sort of thing.

I am very willing to be shown wrong on this however...

[Razgovory]

Were the Poles merely collaborating when they took a chunk out of Czechoslovakia?

[Valmy]

Were the Poles merely collaborating when they took a chunk out of Czechoslovakia?

That was different. They were neither compelled to do that nor to threaten war should the USSR intervene to aid Czechoslovakia.

[Martinus]

Were the Poles merely collaborating when they took a chunk out of Czechoslovakia?

That was a pretty shitty (and dumb) move.

[Martinus]

My knowledge is shallow at best, but I was under the understanding that the Poles were pretty anti-Semitic themselves, pre-war, and there were examples aplenty of willing or even enthusiastic cooperation with the Nazi's when it came to rounding up the Jews and shoving them into the ghettos, for example.

The first part of that sentence is definitely right, the second I do not know.

[grumbler]

My knowledge is shallow at best, but I was under the understanding that the Poles were pretty anti-Semitic themselves, pre-war, and there were examples aplenty of willing or even enthusiastic cooperation with the Nazi's when it came to rounding up the Jews and shoving them into the ghettos, for example. Kind of a "Well, it sucks to be occupied by the Nazi's, but at least they are taking care of these damn Jews..." sort of thing.

I am very willing to be shown wrong on this however...

From the memories of the former Polish Jew I mentioned earlier, there were plenty of Poles willing to cooperate with the Nazi police, but also many who helped smuggle food into the ghettos, without which my friend would not have survived. I'll try to remember to ask him if that was a difference between rural Poles and urban Poles.

[Valmy]

Were the Poles merely collaborating when they took a chunk out of Czechoslovakia?

That was a pretty shitty (and dumb) move.

In Poland's defense at least that was done by a small clique of generals.

Though, knowing Eastern Europe, it was probably popular.

[Barrister]

My knowledge is shallow at best, but I was under the understanding that the Poles were pretty anti-Semitic themselves, pre-war, and there were examples aplenty of willing or even enthusiastic cooperation with the Nazi's when it came to rounding up the Jews and shoving them into the ghettos, for example. Kind of a "Well, it sucks to be occupied by the Nazi's, but at least they are taking care of these damn Jews..." sort of thing.

I am very willing to be shown wrong on this however...

The germans took such a uniquely hostile approach in Poland that I think very few actively collaborated in any way.  In other places the Germans would show up and annex the place, making everyone German citizens, or they would install a puppet government that people could still attach some loyalty to.  But no, the Germans felt they were erasing the very existence of the Polish nation.  The General Government was a pure colony, with the intention of making it purely German after the war.

No matter how much you dislike Jews, it's pretty hard for a Pole to go along with that program.

There also wasn't the "at least they're not the Soviets" philosophy that worked in Ukraine.

[Martinus]

Were the Poles merely collaborating when they took a chunk out of Czechoslovakia?

That was a pretty shitty (and dumb) move.

In Poland's defense at least that was done by a small clique of generals.

Though, knowing Eastern Europe, it was probably popular.

I think it was felt that it righted some perceived past wrong (I think the majority of it was ethnically Polish but Czechoslovakia annexed it in 1919 when Poland was occupied in a war with the Soviets). Of course, most territorial annexations are justified that way (see most recently: Crimea), and of course in retrospect it was a rather shitty and dumb move as I said.

It's similar to today's rumblings of Hungary to annex some parts of Ukraine (especially if, say, in a couple of years, Russia would invade Hungary).

[Martinus]

My knowledge is shallow at best, but I was under the understanding that the Poles were pretty anti-Semitic themselves, pre-war, and there were examples aplenty of willing or even enthusiastic cooperation with the Nazi's when it came to rounding up the Jews and shoving them into the ghettos, for example. Kind of a "Well, it sucks to be occupied by the Nazi's, but at least they are taking care of these damn Jews..." sort of thing.

I am very willing to be shown wrong on this however...

The germans took such a uniquely hostile approach in Poland that I think very few actively collaborated in any way.  In other places the Germans would show up and annex the place, making everyone German citizens, or they would install a puppet government that people could still attach some loyalty to.  But no, the Germans felt they were erasing the very existence of the Polish nation.  The General Government was a pure colony, with the intention of making it purely German after the war.

No matter how much you dislike Jews, it's pretty hard for a Pole to go along with that program.

There also wasn't the "at least they're not the Soviets" philosophy that worked in Ukraine.

Yeah, it is really difficult to compare the situation in Poland with really any other occupied nation. Of course there were a lot of shitty Poles and they were not just bad apples (generally, Poland was very catholic, illiterate, backward and antisemitic at the time - all things being equal, it was a lot like modern day Poland in my mind - only now people are more homophobic than antisemitic) but also there were a lot of pretty decent, upstanding Poles. I think the urban vs. rural split grumbler mentions is a pretty decent rule of the thumb on this, with the rural areas' folk being very backward, obscurantist and antisemitic.

[Martinus]

By the way, the plural for "Nazi" is "Nazis". "Nazi's" is a possessive.

It always astonishes me how many native speakers constantly get this wrong.

[Berkut]

My knowledge is shallow at best, but I was under the understanding that the Poles were pretty anti-Semitic themselves, pre-war, and there were examples aplenty of willing or even enthusiastic cooperation with the Nazi's when it came to rounding up the Jews and shoving them into the ghettos, for example. Kind of a "Well, it sucks to be occupied by the Nazi's, but at least they are taking care of these damn Jews..." sort of thing.

I am very willing to be shown wrong on this however...

The germans took such a uniquely hostile approach in Poland that I think very few actively collaborated in any way.  In other places the Germans would show up and annex the place, making everyone German citizens, or they would install a puppet government that people could still attach some loyalty to.  But no, the Germans felt they were erasing the very existence of the Polish nation.  The General Government was a pure colony, with the intention of making it purely German after the war.

No matter how much you dislike Jews, it's pretty hard for a Pole to go along with that program.

There also wasn't the "at least they're not the Soviets" philosophy that worked in Ukraine.

Yeah, it is really difficult to compare the situation in Poland with really any other occupied nation. Of course there were a lot of shitty Poles and they were not just bad apples (generally, Poland was very catholic, illiterate, backward and antisemitic at the time - all things being equal, it was a lot like modern day Poland in my mind - only now people are more homophobic than antisemitic) but also there were a lot of pretty decent, upstanding Poles. I think the urban vs. rural split grumbler mentions is a pretty decent rule of the thumb on this, with the rural areas' folk being very backward, obscurantist and antisemitic.

I think this is a pretty good point, and in respects to the OP, while even if what I said is nominally accurate, the unique violence of the German occupation makes comments that are very generic like this guys perhaps technically accurate, but lacking in the nuance needed to make it not be needlessly inflammatory. It draws a very general parallel between Germans and Poles circa WW2 that might be not strictly incorrect in the specifics of what is being said, but leads to a clearly false conclusion among anyone who does not have a nuanced understanding of the situation.

[Berkut]

By the way, the plural for "Nazi" is "Nazis". "Nazi's" is a possessive.

It always astonishes me how many native speakers constantly get this wrong.

I am astonished myself at how much people get their panty/panties/pantie's all bunched up over things like this...

[grumbler]

I think this is a pretty good point, and in respects to the OP, while even if what I said is nominally accurate, the unique violence of the German occupation makes comments that are very generic like this guys perhaps technically accurate, but lacking in the nuance needed to make it not be needlessly inflammatory. It draws a very general parallel between Germans and Poles circa WW2 that might be not strictly incorrect in the specifics of what is being said, but leads to a clearly false conclusion among anyone who does not have a nuanced understanding of the situation. 

the original statements don't refer to "Germans" or "Poles" at all; it refers to "the murderers and accomplices."  If modern Poles choose to think of ordinary Poles of 1939-1945 that way, they can choose to be offended.  The problem, of course, is that people are responding not to what was said, but to what they think must have been said based on the (faux) outrage.  After all, if Comey wasn't saying insulting things, why would the Polish leadership be outraged?

Only the murderers and accomplices need to be outraged.