Polish leaders outraged over FBI head Holocaust remarks

[Martinus]

Besides, Germans did not *collaborate* with the Nazis. Germans *were* the Nazis. The Nazi state was a legitimate German state just as the Soviet state was a legitimate Russian state. Poles were complicit in Nazi crimes to the same degree as Ukrainians and Lithuanians were complicit in Stalinist crimes.

[Norgy]

Swedes etc. all did.

This is patently untrue. Swedish volunteers joined other units, like the 'Nordland' and 'Wiking' divisions, all of which were mostly German or Volksdeutsche, but with strong Norwegian, Danish and Dutch elements.

I think the FBI representative misses the point entirely, when you look at the history of the occupation of Poland. No other country was subjected to such a harsh treatment. The General Government was essentially a terror regime.

I'd like someone to show me what country that was occupied that wasn't complicit in the Holocaust. The only one I can think of that actually did something grand was Denmark. Individiuals risked their lives to save Jewish refugees and get them to neutral territory, but on the whole, the Holocaust isn't just a black spot on German conscience, but European conscience. The main issue in many Western countries probably wasn't rabid anti-semitism, but rather huge indifference. And if we're pointing fingers, I think the Baltic countries get off too easily here. Lithuanians were enthusiastic collaborators.

[Monoriu]

I only fault the Germans.

[The Brain]

I don't think the FBI would get the wrong guy.

[Monoriu]

I don't think the FBI would get the wrong guy.

Yeah I don't understand why the FBI is involved in this in the first place 

[Martinus]

I don't think the FBI would get the wrong guy.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

I only fault the Germans.

Which is exactly what the rest of Europe wants you to do so you don't underneath their beds when investigating the subject.

[grumbler]

I don't think the FBI would get the wrong guy.

Yeah I don't understand why the FBI is involved in this in the first place 

That's because you are thinking that the head of the FBI is the FBI.  He's just a guy who made a speech.    The rest of the bureau isn't involved.

As far as the topic is concerned, this issue (the exceptionalism of German antisemitism and the Holocaust) has been debated in US academia since at least the 1990s.  The two seminal works on the subject are probably Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning, and Hitler's Willing Executioners by Daniel Goldhagen. 

Browning argues that the people who carried out the Holocaust were, like the subjects of the Milgram Experiement, merely deferring to authority and submitting to peer pressure. He notes that non-Germans also served in these roles, and argues that they did so for similar reasons.  This appears to be Comey's thesis as well.

Goldhagen argues that the Germans participated because of the exceptional nature of German antisemitism, in that German antisemitism didn't seek the suppression of the Jews, but their elimination from German society.  He argues that, while non-Germans participated in the Holocaust, they did so out of fear, not hatred.  The Polish ambassador obviously believes something more along these lines.

[Razgovory]

There were quite a few collaborators in Eastern Europe.

Unlike in Western Europe?

WTF? Poland had a very significant resistance movement. Warsaw was the only major european capital annihilated through resistance action. That isn't to say there weren't collaborators, but to compare them to the Hungarians who allied with the Germans and invaded the USSR with them?

There were plenty in Western Europe as well.

[alfred russel]

So including Jews in a statement like this (after all there were a few Jews actually collaborating and serving as guards etc.) would not cause a furore either?

I think I would add the French and Dutch to that list. There is a perception that the Jews living in Germany and Eastern Europe were within populations ready and willing to kill them--and the Nazis just gave them the opportunity.

[Neil]

Maybe he's considering Polish violence against the survivors after the war?

[PDH]

As far as the topic is concerned, this issue (the exceptionalism of German antisemitism and the Holocaust) has been debated in US academia since at least the 1990s.  The two seminal works on the subject are probably Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning, and Hitler's Willing Executioners by Daniel Goldhagen. 

Browning argues that the people who carried out the Holocaust were, like the subjects of the Milgram Experiement, merely deferring to authority and submitting to peer pressure. He notes that non-Germans also served in these roles, and argues that they did so for similar reasons.  This appears to be Comey's thesis as well.

Goldhagen argues that the Germans participated because of the exceptional nature of German antisemitism, in that German antisemitism didn't seek the suppression of the Jews, but their elimination from German society.  He argues that, while non-Germans participated in the Holocaust, they did so out of fear, not hatred.  The Polish ambassador obviously believes something more along these lines.

And that is the crux of the whole thing.  The "Willing Executioners" could have had more traction if it was "Europa's Willing Executioners" rather than saying it was mostly Germany/German.  While the Milgram thesis might have some overstatements, the willingness to go along with atrocities because others do is not what most people wish to believe they are capable of.  I have always found Browning to be the more compelling of the two.

It is far more comforting to believe that one would not do such things, or that perhaps one's own prejudices are not at the level of genocidal violence when in a certain situation, but that is more self-congratulations than a position borne out by documented actions.

[grumbler]

And that is the crux of the whole thing.  The "Willing Executioners" could have had more traction if it was "Europa's Willing Executioners" rather than saying it was mostly Germany/German.  While the Milgram thesis might have some overstatements, the willingness to go along with atrocities because others do is not what most people wish to believe they are capable of.  I have always found Browning to be the more compelling of the two.

It is far more comforting to believe that one would not do such things, or that perhaps one's own prejudices are not at the level of genocidal violence when in a certain situation, but that is more self-congratulations than a position borne out by documented actions.

The most interesting part of Browning's tale is that the members of the German police unit he chronicled were given a chance to opt out of killing Jews, and only something like a dozen of the 600 men  took advantage of that opportunity, even though there were no punishments given to those who opted out  (they were just transferred to another police unit).  They were told that killing Jews was important, and so they believed it.  There was nothing extraordinary about the unit, other than its mission.  They were not picked because it was believed that they would go along, they were just selected from men too old to be drafted, or who suffered from some other disqualification for active military service.

[PDH]

The most interesting part of Browning's tale is that the members of the German police unit he chronicled were given a chance to opt out of killing Jews, and only something like a dozen of the 600 men  took advantage of that opportunity, even though there were no punishments given to those who opted out  (they were just transferred to another police unit).  They were told that killing Jews was important, and so they believed it.  There was nothing extraordinary about the unit, other than its mission.  They were not picked because it was believed that they would go along, they were just selected from men too old to be drafted, or who suffered from some other disqualification for active military service.

That is the point I always try to drive home to my students.  There is nothing to say that anyone, and I mean even the sanctimonious instructor at the front of the room, might not go along with such things if presented.  The truly scary thing about human society is the ability to dehumanize out of simple belonging.

[Zanza]

Austrians can probably be named together with Germans when it comes to the Holocaust, but all the rest were just collaborators and do not - especially as whole societies instead of individuals - a comparable historical guilt for the Holocaust.