Turks rage over the Pope's Armenian genocide claim

[jimmy olsen]

Fucking babies, whining because someone had the guts to tell the truth

Also, fuck the BBC for putting genocide in quotation marks, what a pathetic display of cowardice.   

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32272604

Turkey anger at Pope Francis Armenian 'genocide' claim

12 April 2015

Turkey has recalled its envoy to the Vatican after Pope Francis described the mass killing of Armenians under Ottoman rule in WW1 as "genocide".

Turkey has reacted with anger to the comment made by the Pope at a service in Rome earlier on Sunday.

Armenia and many historians say up to 1.5 million Armenian Christians were killed by Ottoman forces in 1915.

But Turkey has always disputed that figure and said the deaths were part of a civil conflict triggered by WW1.

The row has continued to sour relations between Armenia and Turkey.

'Bleeding wound'

The Pope made the comments at a Mass in the Armenian Catholic rite at Peter's Basilica, attended by the Armenian president and church leaders.

He said that humanity had lived through "three massive and unprecedented tragedies" in the last century.

"The first, which is widely considered 'the first genocide of the 20th Century', struck your own Armenian people," he said, in a form of words used by a declaration by Pope John Paul II in 2001.

Pope Francis also referred to the crimes "perpetrated by Nazism and Stalinism" and said other genocides had followed in Cambodia, Rwanda, Burundi and Bosnia.

He said it was his duty to honour the memories of those who were killed.

"Concealing or denying evil is like allowing a wound to keep bleeding without bandaging it," the Pope added.

Armenia's President Serzh Sargsyan welcomed his comments, saying they sent a powerful message to the international community.

But Turkey immediately summoned the Vatican's ambassador to Ankara for an explanation, and then later recalled its ambassador from Rome.

The foreign ministry said it felt "great disappointment and sadness" at the Pope's remarks, which it said would cause a "problem of trust" between them.

Turkey's Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu tweeted: "The Pope's statement, which is far from the legal and historical reality, cannot be accepted.

"Religious authorities are not the places to incite resentment and hatred with baseless allegations," he added.

Analysis: David Willey, BBC News, Rome

Pope Francis, who visited Turkey last year, would have been perfectly conscious that he would offend the moderate Muslim country by his use of the word "genocide".

But the Pope's powerful phrase "concealing or denying evil is like allowing a wound to bleed without bandaging it" extended his condemnation to all other, more recent, mass killings.

It now remains to be seen how far his remarks will impact upon the Vatican's future relations with moderate Muslim states. It was a bold decision but totally coherent with Pope Francis' philosophy of open discussion about moral arguments.

Pope Francis' focus today on Armenia, the first country to adopt Christianity as its state religion, even before the conversion of the Roman Emperor Constantine, serves as yet another reminder of the Catholic Church's widely spread roots in Eastern Europe and the Middle East.

'Political conflict'

In 2014, for the first time, Turkish PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan offered condolences to the grandchildren of all the Armenians who lost their lives.

But he also said that it was inadmissible for Armenia to turn the issue "into a matter of political conflict".

Armenia says up to 1.5 million people died in 1915-16 as the Ottoman Empire was disintegrating. Turkey has said the number of deaths was much smaller.

Many of the victims were civilians deported en masse to barren desert regions where they died of starvation and thirst. Thousands also died in massacres.

Most non-Turkish scholars of the events regard them as genocide. Among the other states which formally recognise them as genocide are Argentina, Belgium, Canada, France, Italy, Russia and Uruguay.

Turkey maintains that many of the dead were killed in clashes during World War One, and that ethnic Turks also suffered in the conflict.

[Martinus]

The "objectivity standards" displayed by BBC are the reason why I really lost a lot of respect for them. They are the very epitome of the type of "the truth is in the middle" pseudo-objective journalism that would pit a Holocaust survivor against a Holocaust denier, to pretend they are fair and balanced.

Edit: Although in the second part of the article they are no longer using the scare quotes, and in the first part it is somewhat justified as they are quoting the Pope.

[Martinus]

Also, good for Frank. I feel about him the same as Bill Maher does - i.e. sometimes he says stupid shit to pander to the base, but generally is quite a decent bloke, for a Pope.

[Ed Anger]

Timmay is all foul mouthed this morning.

*faints*

[grumbler]

Also, fuck the BBC for putting bleeding wounds in quotation marks, what a pathetic display of cowardice.

[Liep]

'The Draem' (Danish Remembrance Armenian Empathy Messenger) is a sculpture being put up in a square in Copenhagen in 10 days. I expect it to be defaced within a couple of hours and to be used for quick poltical points within minutes.

Rendition:

[jimmy olsen]

Shockingly, the EU parliament concurs! I'm astonished!

Wonder if the BBC will put this one in quotes as well?

http://news.yahoo.com/turkeys-erdogan-says-disregard-european-view-armenian-killings-083736104.html

European Parliament votes to call 1915 Armenian killings genocide

By Adrian Croft and Ayla Jean Yackley
9 hours ago

BRUSSELS/ISTANBUL (Reuters) - The European Parliament backed a motion on Wednesday that calls the massacre a century ago of up to 1.5 million Armenians by Ottoman Turkish forces a "genocide", days after Pope Francis triggered fury in Turkey by using the same term.

Although the resolution repeated language previously adopted by the parliament in 1987, it could stoke tensions with EU candidate nation Turkey. Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan said even before the vote took place that he would ignore the result.

After the vote, the Turkish foreign ministry accused the European Parliament of attempting to rewrite history.

Muslim Turkey agrees that Christian Armenians were killed in clashes with Ottoman forces that began on April 15, 1915, when large numbers of Armenians lived in the empire ruled by Istanbul, but denies that this amounted to genocide.

Armenia, some Western historians and foreign parliaments refer to the mass killings as genocide.

Voting by show of hands, European lawmakers overwhelmingly backed the motion stating that the "tragic events that took place in 1915-1917 against the Armenians in the territory of the Ottoman Empire represent a genocide".

Armenia's Foreign Minister Edward Nalbandian hailed the resolution as a move aimed at defending human rights.

"The Resolution contains an important message to Turkey to use the commemoration of the centenary of the Armenian Genocide to come to terms with its past, to recognize the Armenian Genocide and thus pave the way for a genuine reconciliation between Turkish and Armenian peoples," he said in a statement.

Pope Francis sparked a diplomatic row last Sunday by calling the killings "the first genocide of the 20th century". His remarks prompted Turkey to summon the Vatican's ambassador to the Holy See and to recall its own.

The European Parliament sprang to the pope's defense, commending the message the pontiff delivered at the weekend.

"IN ONE EAR, OUT THE OTHER"

Turkey is a candidate country to join the 28-nation EU but accession talks have dragged on for years with little progress.

Earlier, Erdogan told a news conference that "whatever decision the European Parliament took on Armenian genocide claims would "go in one ear and out the other".

"It is out of the question for there to be a stain, a shadow called 'genocide', on Turkey," he said at Ankara airport before departing on a visit to Kazakhstan.

Last year, when he was Turkey's prime minister, Erdogan offered what his government said were unprecedented condolences to the grandchildren of Armenians killed during World War One.

Wednesday's resolution said such statements were a step in the right direction, but legislators urged Turkey to go further.

In a statement after the vote, Turkey's foreign ministry said lawmakers who backed the resolution were in partnership with "those who have nothing to do with European values and are feeding on hatred, revenge and the culture of conflict".

(Additional reporting by Humeyra Pamuk and Ece Toksabay in Ankara, Francesco Guarascio in Brussels, Hasmik Mkrtchyan in Yerevan; Editing by Gareth Jones)

[Martinus]

Why would you be surprised, Tim? The European Parliament is pretty decent on things like that. The problem is that they lack political power.

Also:

His remarks prompted Turkey to summon the Vatican's ambassador to the Holy See

[Syt]

would "go in one ear and out the other".

Because there's nothing in between to stop it.

[MadImmortalMan]

'The Draem' (Danish Remembrance Armenian Empathy Messenger)

Is that like a realm spell setup? My Birthright set doesn't have anything about genocides, but it could be cool.

[Martinus]

'The Draem' (Danish Remembrance Armenian Empathy Messenger)

Is that like a realm spell setup? My Birthright set doesn't have anything about genocides, but it could be cool.

Yes, it gives +3 to Smugness to the casting nation and +3 to Anger to the target of the spell.

[Martinus]

By the way, Birthright is the most interesting RPG I read but never played.

[Liep]

Yes, it gives +3 to Smugness to the casting nation and +3 to Anger to the target of the spell.

The smugness is quite visible today on our overly decorated politicians as they celebrate our Queen. Although, they are caught between not wanting to anger the Turks too much by saying the g-word and this freedom of speech malarkey.

[Razgovory]

By the way, Birthright is the most interesting RPG I read but never played.

Had a lot of fun with it back in the day.  You can download a Birthright Mod for Crusader Kings 2.

[Syt]

The German parliament will have a memorial for the murdered Armenians, but the government has struck the term "genocide" from all documents, instead referring to massacres and forced relocations.