Slavery Poll

[Monoriu]

These people aren't paid overtime for the most part Mono and they're paid by the hour. Does that not exist in Hong Kong?

Here it is like we pay you eight hours of wages but we actually demand that you work twelve hours without paying you more.

[viper37]

These people aren't paid overtime for the most part Mono and they're paid by the hour. Does that not exist in Hong Kong?

what he means is that an employee works 60hrs but gets paid for 40.  They settle for 2000$/week, but don't specify the number of hours.

[Sheilbh]

Okay. But there's a difference between that happening to someone who will always get their 40 hours pay a week, or who is on a salary and has to do overtime and a zero hours contract. The former is normal, I've had that in many jobs.

A zero hours contract is that you're paid by the hours you work and each week the boss will phone you up and tell you how many hours you're getting. You don't get overtime (though chances are you've signed away the 48 hour maximum anyway), but you're also not guaranteed that 40 hours pay. It's a very precarious position and very open to abuse.

[Razgovory]

It did?  How do you figure that?

Because slavery was not competitive with wage labor in factories.

Clearly it is or they wouldn't enslave people in East Asia to work in brick factories and the like.  As far as I know, slavery tended to be abolished by government fiat, often by violence.

[MadImmortalMan]

As far as I know, slavery tended to be abolished by government fiat, often by violence.

And upheld the same way.

[Monoriu]

Okay. But there's a difference between that happening to someone who will always get their 40 hours pay a week, or who is on a salary and has to do overtime and a zero hours contract. The former is normal, I've had that in many jobs.

A zero hours contract is that you're paid by the hours you work and each week the boss will phone you up and tell you how many hours you're getting. You don't get overtime (though chances are you've signed away the 48 hour maximum anyway), but you're also not guaranteed that 40 hours pay. It's a very precarious position and very open to abuse.

Seems like a zero hour contract is very common here, especially for construction workers.

[Razgovory]

As far as I know, slavery tended to be abolished by government fiat, often by violence.

And upheld the same way.

Incorrect.  It was upheld by violence but typically by the owner of the slave.  The state would get involved in case of a slave rebellion, and as states grew in sophistication they would regulate slavery (in the same way that it would regulate any other type of trade), but maintaining slavery usually fell to the owner.  While it can't be certain, slavery likely predates the existence of states.  We know it existed in stateless societies such as amongst hunter gatherers.  When states formed and created protections for property ownership slavery was likely just one of many forms of property that was protected.

[MadImmortalMan]

Incorrect.

Slavery can't exist if the government says no. Sorry, but it just can't. It needs political backing or it fails.

[Tonitrus]

Incorrect.

Slavery can't exist if the government says no. Sorry, but it just can't. It needs political backing or it fails.

  There is plenty of de facto slavery going on out there (in the criminal world), despite government prohibition.  But I'm assuming that kind is not what you're talking about.

[celedhring]

It's a big issue with shop workers and the like in the UK too. The Lib Dems and Labour are both promising to abolish them.

They can try, but there will always be ways around it.

Pretty certain those are not possible in Spain.

[Zanza]

Germany specifically banned them. If there are no hours in your contract the law assumes a minimum of ten hours per week or if there is a working history the average of the last weeks. Single time slots need to be at least 3 hours long. And the employer has to announce the time slots at least 4 days ahead.
There are ways to cheat that system, e.g. telling the employees to take long pause times etc. But it is less abusive than the UK system apparently is.

[Martinus]

What is a 0 hour contract?

Essentially a contract with an external contractor who is a de facto employee but only gets paid for the hours actually worked (hence the "0 hours" as he or she gets no guarantee about pay/work in a given period) and enjoys no protections of a traditional employee.

More and more service providers (such as cleaners and the like) are getting employed this way in Europe.

That actually sounds better than what employees get in Hong Kong.  At least they get paid for hours worked.  One of the chief labour complaints in HK is that employers can get away with demanding extra hours from employees and not paying overtime, because there is no requirement to specify the number of working hours in the contract.

That's different. We are talking about a situation here where a worker, going into a week/month, does not know how much or if he earns any money at all - but needs to be available. A situation when people are paid for 8 hours of work each day (or a weekly or a monthly salary)but end up working a few hours more would be preferable, imo.

[Martinus]

Okay. But there's a difference between that happening to someone who will always get their 40 hours pay a week, or who is on a salary and has to do overtime and a zero hours contract. The former is normal, I've had that in many jobs.

A zero hours contract is that you're paid by the hours you work and each week the boss will phone you up and tell you how many hours you're getting. You don't get overtime (though chances are you've signed away the 48 hour maximum anyway), but you're also not guaranteed that 40 hours pay. It's a very precarious position and very open to abuse.

Seems like a zero hour contract is very common here, especially for construction workers.

It does make sense for some professions (namely, the ones where you provide service to an external customer) - but it is abused by being used for people who by all accounts should have a steady job (like tea ladies and the like).

I think the devil is as always in the details - some of the best paid job are effectively "zero hour contracts" but that goes with the territory. It is a different story when used for people performing repetitive menial tasks at minimum wage for the same employer.

[Martinus]

Germany specifically banned them. If there are no hours in your contract the law assumes a minimum of ten hours per week or if there is a working history the average of the last weeks. Single time slots need to be at least 3 hours long. And the employer has to announce the time slots at least 4 days ahead.
There are ways to cheat that system, e.g. telling the employees to take long pause times etc. But it is less abusive than the UK system apparently is.

In Poland it is abused through various outsourcing contracts. Attempts are being made to curb it but it is not always very easy to do (for example, it is perfectly legitimate to hire a lawyer, a consultant or an author to deliver a specific product, such as a report or a book - and pay accordingly; but paying a cleaning lady to deliver a "specific product" of cleaning the same office every day clearly abuses the system; but then there are legitimate cleaners like my cleaning lady who is not really employed by anyone and has around 20 clients she visits on a bi-weekly basis - and here treating her like an employee would make no sense).

[MadImmortalMan]

There are hundreds of methods to do it, and no law can stop them all. If people are willing, it will happen. And people will always be willing.