Sheilbh's Scott Walker Lovefest and Union Bashing Megathread

[Admiral Yi]

But isn't the contrary true as well? Very few private sector employees face the risk of having their employment or the terms of it changed by legislation every 4 years or so.

I face the risk of having the terms of my employment changed every day.

[Jacob]

The problem is that "legalized bribery" is a problem that fundamentally can never really be solved.

Of course it can be solved.  It almost was solved.  Then a few people appointed to judicial office un-solved it.

And it has been solved in other countries as well.

[Sheilbh]

Not to mention a better pay for a teacher would lead to better people wanting to do teaching. The "lowest possible cost" approach to human-based economy is rarely a public benefit. :|

Yep. Teachers are the same as anyone else.

There's a great conundrum in the UK over London state schools. They're the best in the country at the hardest subjects (this is a recent development over the last 20 years or so) - especially for poorer children. There's various possible structural reasons and cultural ones and funding issues but none of them seem to truly explain it (which is a shame as it makes it difficult to replicate).

One potential part of this is that it's very easy to attract good young teachers who want to live in London. So there's the Teach First program which basically has people from the best universities in the country get paid to teach for a year before going off into high-flying city jobs etc. But a substantial number discover they love teaching and stay. I've got a couple of friends from top ten universities who teach in once run-down state schools through this. Trouble is, of course, that's impossible to replicate in Barnsley.

But to be teachers are like everyone else and to get good ones then short of a city people want to live in, attractive pensions, decent benefits and pay are a good way to go about it. The Guardian always cite Finland in this where teachers salaries are roughly competitive with other professionals.

[Martinus]

But isn't the contrary true as well? Very few private sector employees face the risk of having their employment or the terms of it changed by legislation every 4 years or so.

I face the risk of having the terms of my employment changed every day.

I guess your life sucks then. I have 3-months' notice.

[DGuller]

The problem is that "legalized bribery" is a problem that fundamentally can never really be solved.

Of course it can be solved.  It almost was solved.  Then a few people appointed to judicial office un-solved it.

And it has been solved in other countries as well.

Yeah, but Americans are exceptional. 

[Berkut]

Define "teacher performance" in a way that is easily measurable.

Why would I do that?

You are the one that brought up teacher performance and how paying them more will get better teachers. I am agree with you, but noting that public sector unions are vehemently opposed to getting better teachers, they just want the more money part.

I don't even really blame them for that - it is their purpose, after all. As the head of the NYC teachers union pointed out, he doesn't represent kids, he represents teachers.

[CountDeMoney]

But isn't the contrary true as well? Very few private sector employees face the risk of having their employment or the terms of it changed by legislation every 4 years or so.

I face the risk of having the terms of my employment changed every day.

I guess your life sucks then. I have 3-months' notice.

That's fucking America, man.  Nothing says "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" like living with the constant specter of losing one's job at a moment's notice.  And we like it like that, because anything else is pure communism.

[The Brain]

We have the idea in Sweden as well that somehow teaching is fundamentally different from every other fucking job on the planet.

[Martinus]

Define "teacher performance" in a way that is easily measurable.

Why would I do that?

You are the one that brought up teacher performance and how paying them more will get better teachers. I am agree with you, but noting that public sector unions are vehemently opposed to getting better teachers, they just want the more money part.

I don't even really blame them for that - it is their purpose, after all. As the head of the NYC teachers union pointed out, he doesn't represent kids, he represents teachers.

Where the fuck did I bring up teacher performance? Show me the fucking post.

[Sheilbh]

Are you kidding me? I face the risk of my employment terms being changed a hell of lot more often than every four years.

True. I always forget America doesn't really do employment protection like contracts or notice periods.

And again, results speak for themselves - public sector jobs are considered to be in almost all cases the safest, lowest risk, lowest demand jobs to be had...if you can get one.

Which is necessarily true:

[MadImmortalMan]

We have the idea in Sweden as well that somehow teaching is fundamentally different from every other fucking job on the planet.

We have a circular problem in the US, where we need to pay teachers better, but the teachers we have are providing a service that's genuinely not that valuable.

[Sheilbh]

You are the one that brought up teacher performance and how paying them more will get better teachers. I am agree with you, but noting that public sector unions are vehemently opposed to getting better teachers, they just want the more money part.

Although this is obviously very local as well the Obama administration has done quite a lot on this. His Education Secretary is Arne Duncan after all.

I don't even really blame them for that - it is their purpose, after all. As the head of the NYC teachers union pointed out, he doesn't represent kids, he represents teachers.

Exactly. A Health Secretary who doesn't get heckled by the Royal College of Nursing or a Home Secretary who doesn't get heckled by the Police Federation are clearly not doing their jobs properly.

[frunk]

Why would I do that?

You are the one that brought up teacher performance and how paying them more will get better teachers. I am agree with you, but noting that public sector unions are vehemently opposed to getting better teachers, they just want the more money part.

I don't even really blame them for that - it is their purpose, after all. As the head of the NYC teachers union pointed out, he doesn't represent kids, he represents teachers.

Yeah, it's surprising how ridiculous the teacher contract is in some instances.  To some extent it isn't even an issue of getting better teachers or even identifying the bad ones, but getting rid of the bad ones.  It might not be current, but I remember from a few years ago a report on teachers who were removed from their position due to gross incompetence, and because of the contract they couldn't be fired.  They had a room or building somewhere where they just had these teachers sit there, draw salary and not do anything.

Ah, there's a wiki about it.

[DGuller]

Where the fuck did I bring up teacher performance? Show me the fucking post.

To be fair, while Berkut does often read people's posts in a way that fits his preconceived notions rather than communicated ideas, and that is in the rare case when he even properly comprehends the written post, you did say that better pay would attract better people here: 

Not to mention a better pay for a teacher would lead to better people wanting to do teaching. The "lowest possible cost" approach to human-based economy is rarely a public benefit. :|

Using "better people" does imply that you have a measure of performance in mind, otherwise how do you define better?

[The Minsky Moment]

No they don't.  Everything you've mentioned has economic consequences that to an impartial observer could be net positives. 

I disagree.  My guess is very few impartial observers see public benefit in carried interest treatment, depletion allowances, or spending on unnecessary defense procurement

Raising an existing teacher's pension provides no comparable public benefit.

Sure there is a public benefit - increased compensation attracts higher quality applicants for an important public function and the teacher will have more income to spend on other goods over his or her lifetime.