The Greens: Humanity's greatest enemy

[Razgovory]

I'm reminded of Meister Hans' analysis of the counterculture as people who self-define themselves in opposition to the mainstream, regardless of where the mainstream happens to be.

An interesting conundrum.  Who are the true fascists, the Mainstream Media or the Counterculture?

[CountDeMoney]

I'd love to see them win. And them swinging from lampposts when the right takes them out.

A MAN CAN DREAM

Yeah, nyuk nyuk, it's all hilarious.  It's always hilarious to ignore it all until the bombs start going off.

[Ed Anger]

I'd love to see them win. And them swinging from lampposts when the right takes them out.

A MAN CAN DREAM

Yeah, nyuk nyuk, it's all hilarious.  It's always hilarious to ignore it all until the bombs start going off.

Oh calm down. Light a candle.

[Admiral Yi]

Pretty much. This part:

"While their rivals recognise more trade, more innovation, more competition and more globalisation as an engine for prosperity for everyone on the planet, the Greens argue it is nothing more than a race to the bottom that has made the poor poorer, the rich richer, and pillaged the environment."

seems about right though.

The poor in China, Malaysia, Laos, Vietnam--all the countries that have benefited from the offshoring of low skill production work--have most definitely not gotten poorer.  They have done quite well.

[CountDeMoney]

I'm reminded of Meister Hans' analysis of the counterculture as people who self-define themselves in opposition to the mainstream, regardless of where the mainstream happens to be.

An interesting conundrum.  Who are the true fascists, the Mainstream Media or the Counterculture?

Hans is one of those guys that fetishes the trappings of power and authority, which is why he's such a right-wing fuckcake.   

[Sheilbh]

I'm reminded of Meister Hans' analysis of the counterculture as people who self-define themselves in opposition to the mainstream, regardless of where the mainstream happens to be.

An interesting conundrum.  Who are the true fascists, the Mainstream Media or the Counterculture?

Hans is one of those guys that fetishes the trappings of power and authority, which is why he's such a right-wing fuckcake.   

Yeah it's the sort of argument you get from 'Christianity is cool' Lefebvrists. The real counter-culture is found in the cilice and the cell.

There is no counter-culture any more. I mean what's more mainstream than a party of Guardian readers. That John Cage quote is right, 'we live in a time I think not of mainstream, but of many streams, or even, if you insist upon a river of time, that we have come to a delta, maybe even beyond delta to an ocean which is going back to the skies.'

[Ideologue]

  That sounds so unpleasant.

I've definitely gone deep into an idiosyncratic leftism that is maybe a dark place to be.   A place where I sometimes end up converging with different strains of the far-right more than I'd expect.  The fate of the syndicalists, I suppose.  The last time I visited my folks, I went on a long, unexpected rant to my mother about the merits of fascist corporatism versus today's globalized capital status quo, ready to sell out the country's interests to the highest bidder. 

And I've gone as pro-gun and pro-nuclear as any right-wing rural New Englander in this area (living right near a nuclear plant that's just been shuttered due to unpopularity, even though all the radioactive material is just going to sit there indefinitely).

Not to mention what I've absorbed in criminal defense practice -- an intense skepticism of the State's idea of coercing people into "improving" themselves, via the therapeutic-industrial complex.  As well as the realization that mainstream feminism has been "neutered" of its radicalism in the service of the heart of the "patriarchy" i.e. the police state which prosecutes DV, and the corresponding victim-industrial complex; elements bring me into scary proximity with  some of the "Men's Rights Advocates" (*shudder*) arguments... 

I guess that's why I'm drawn to the Syriza finance minister's self-descriptions as a "libertarian Marxist" and "an atheist monk of the middle ages cloistered in theological study."

Yeah, if you cherry-picked a lot of things I say (cough JACOB cough), you'd find a lot of departure from the crappy orthodoxy of modern leftism, just because I believe in economic autarky, the death penalty, a surveillance state, soft eugenics, and escalating directly to nuclear combat when threatened.  My Southern accent doesn't help.

Anyway, the Greens' general goals aren't really insane.  They're absolutely right that in absolute numbers, assuming no revolutionary technological change, global GDP has to be voluntarily reduced by a marked amount, although more accurately the human population has to be reduced by a marked amount, through (one hopes) voluntary dieback.  The alternative is a GDP reduction of around 100%.

Obviously, Communism is vastly superior: the rationally-run command economy would ultimately come to the same conclusion and establish Five Year Plans that would effectively do that, without the hippie bullshit.

[Capetan Mihali]

I'm reminded of Meister Hans' analysis of the counterculture as people who self-define themselves in opposition to the mainstream, regardless of where the mainstream happens to be.

I fully admit being guided by a certain deep-seated contrarianism and a tendency to feel uncomfortable being hemmed into any one political program.  But my honest feelings on certain issues -- many owing to my experiences participating in the legal system such as it is -- have moved me into heartfelt positions that are jarring for many American left-liberals or "progressives."

Ironically, I think my strong commitment to a critical type of feminism has shown me some of the unsavory consequences of the appropriation of mainstream "feminism" by the state apparatus -- e.g. the surreal sight of "Smash Patriarchy" magnets on the refrigerator in the prosecutor's office breakroom, while men in arrears on child support are having their driver's licenses and professional licenses suspended so they can't earn a living without breaking the law -- such that I can't dismiss some of "men's rights" critiques out of hand.  (Though I certainly don't appreciate the movement as a whole, which seems to gain emotional traction by exploiting some men's deep psychic wounds and directing them into a scary feeling that they've been victimized by "women" broadly, rather than by a system mainly run by men.)

[Ideologue]

Pretty much. This part:

"While their rivals recognise more trade, more innovation, more competition and more globalisation as an engine for prosperity for everyone on the planet, the Greens argue it is nothing more than a race to the bottom that has made the poor poorer, the rich richer, and pillaged the environment."

seems about right though.

The poor in China, Malaysia, Laos, Vietnam--all the countries that have benefited from the offshoring of low skill production work--have most definitely not gotten poorer.  They have done quite well.

I'm unsure that developing nations on the other side of the planet getting the chance to experience all the joys of early 20th century capitalism while we sink back into it is what anybody would call "win-win."

[Sheilbh]

Yeah, if you cherry-picked a lot of things I say (cough JACOB cough), you'd find a lot of departure from the crappy orthodoxy of modern leftism, just because I believe in economic autarky, the death penalty, a surveillance state, soft eugenics, and escalating directly to nuclear combat when threatened.  My Southern accent doesn't help.

I do wonder, after my enforced exile in EUOT, how they got the idea we're all right-wing maniacs when even our leftiest of members hover on the fringes of a sort-of Peguyesque socialism

Anyway, the Greens' general goals aren't really insane.  They're absolutely right that in absolute numbers, assuming no revolutionary technological change, global GDP has to be voluntarily reduced by a marked amount, although more accurately the human population has to be reduced by a marked amount, through (one hopes) voluntary dieback.  The alternative is a GDP reduction of around 100%.

They are insane and they're wrong on everything

I hate this anti-human nonsense.

Edit: Although the idea of a basic income is actually an interesting one which I don't necessarily oppose.

[Admiral Yi]

I'm unsure that developing nations on the other side of the planet getting the chance to experience all the joys of early 20th century capitalism while we sink back into it is what anybody would call "win-win."

I'm sure if I ask you nicely you will tell me how this post relates to the one you quoted.

[CountDeMoney]

Edit: Although the idea of a basic income is actually an interesting one which I don't necessarily oppose.

Oh sure....when you want it, it's OK.

[Ideologue]

I'm unsure that developing nations on the other side of the planet getting the chance to experience all the joys of early 20th century capitalism while we sink back into it is what anybody would call "win-win."

I'm sure if I ask you nicely you will tell me how this post relates to the one you quoted.

They're doing better in the sense their standards of living were raised from intolerable barbarity to slightly less intolerable barbarity.  Most of the gains from globalization did not go to them, much as most of the gains from globalization in the early 20th century did not accrue to the people at large, either.

I hate this anti-human nonsense.

I'm not anti-human, but it's beyond obvious that 700 billion kilograms of biomass that thinks is going to cut deep into the carriage capacity of our shitty planet.

Edit: Although the idea of a basic income is actually an interesting one which I don't necessarily oppose.

I'm really excited to see if this 1)gets passed and 2)works in Switzerland.  It's clear that this is eventually going to become a huge necessity as the 21st century continues, but the problem is timing.  We're not quite at the point where mass technological unemployment demands it, but we might be rapidly approaching the point where the ongoing automation revolution can, in fact, feed it.

[Valmy]

Pretty much. This part:

"While their rivals recognise more trade, more innovation, more competition and more globalisation as an engine for prosperity for everyone on the planet, the Greens argue it is nothing more than a race to the bottom that has made the poor poorer, the rich richer, and pillaged the environment."

seems about right though.

Yes.  Scientific backwardness and coal mines for all is how to save the environment.

You really think innovation has made the poor poorer and destroyed the environment?  Whatever.  The numbers of people living in poverty is not getting smaller.  Please convince me of this brilliant idea.

My God, I cannot believe a supposed supporter of French socialism would be such a Luddite.

[Sheilbh]

I'm not anti-human, but it's beyond obvious that 700 billion kilograms of biomass that thinks is going to cut deep into the carriage capacity of our shitty planet.

Nah. We'll be fine. Alternately before it's a problem we'll have blown the world up anyway.

I'm really excited to see if this 1)gets passed and 2)works in Switzerland.  It's clear that this is eventually going to become a huge necessity as the 21st century continues, but the problem is timing.  We're not quite at the point where mass technological unemployment demands it, but we might be rapidly approaching the point where the ongoing automation revolution can, in fact, feed it.

I think Switzerland voted it down. But I agree I think we're nearing the point where it'll become necessary. Until then targeted benefits are the better option, but if automation works then we should have a basic income rather than ever-proliferating bullshit jobs.