Grand unified books thread

[Barrister]

Shelf, are you saying that ending war time lend lease after the war was over was considered by some a provocative and confrontational act? 

I'm not an expert, but yes, or at least sort-of.

The Soviet (and UK) economies were on 100% war footings.  There had been discussion about lend-lease continuing for a period of time after the end of hostilities (though certainly nothing binding) in order to allow for a transition to a peace-time economy.  But shortly after VJ-Day it ended immediately.

[jimmy olsen]

Shelf, are you saying that ending war time lend lease after the war was over was considered by some a provocative and confrontational act? 

Cutting the food aid in particular forced Stalin to immediately demobilize millions of soldiers in order to send them back to the farm.

[Razgovory]

I disagree with the idea that the Cold War was unavoidable, but it would seem really hard to avoid with Stalin in charge.

[Kleves]

Cutting the food aid in particular forced Stalin to immediately demobilize millions of soldiers in order to send them back to the farm.

It's horrible that the Soviets had to oppress eastern Europe with millions fewer soldiers than desired. 

[Ed Anger]

Cutting the food aid in particular forced Stalin to immediately demobilize millions of soldiers in order to send them back to the farm.

It's horrible that the Soviets had to oppress eastern Europe with millions fewer soldiers than desired. 

GOD DAMN AMERICA

[mongers]

Shelf, are you saying that ending war time lend lease after the war was over was considered by some a provocative and confrontational act? 

I'm not an expert, but yes, or at least sort-of.

The Soviet (and UK) economies were on 100% war footings.  There had been discussion about lend-lease continuing for a period of time after the end of hostilities (though certainly nothing binding) in order to allow for a transition to a peace-time economy.  But shortly after VJ-Day it ended immediately.

But how could it be a  "a provocative and confrontational act" if they treated the Soviet and yet their closest ally in a broadly similar fashion ?


Incidentally I don't buy the whole 'USA left the UK in the lurch at wars end/in the Anglo-American bank loan/treaty of 1946 the USA took advantage of the UK' etc.

[Razgovory]

Cutting the food aid in particular forced Stalin to immediately demobilize millions of soldiers in order to send them back to the farm.

It's horrible that the Soviets had to oppress eastern Europe with millions fewer soldiers than desired. 

Well there was a famine as well, but I think the Soviets could have worked out a deal with the US if they really wanted to.  I mean they were invited to the Marshal plan. 

[Darth Wagtaros]

I won't be able to start until Thursday, unless I manage to find a copy at the San Francisco Airport

HA HA! I ordered mine off Amazon. with Prime and some saved up points it'll be delivered Tuesday and I don't have to pay for it.  Yays.

[CountDeMoney]

I saw Oliver Stone and his buddy that have been doing their "Blame Everything On America" revisionist history series interviewed on MSNBC yesterday, and even though I always thought Stone was goofier than a shithouse mouse, he's been officially off the ledge apparently for quite some time now.

When Martin Bashir gives you a hard time about your goofyness, you know you're nuts.

[Darth Wagtaros]

Watched Fargo. Was good. Surprised.

[The Brain]

Watched Fargo. Was good. Surprised.

[Darth Wagtaros]

Watched Fargo. Was good. Surprised.

I know. You are one of the book elitists.

[jimmy olsen]

I won't be able to start until Thursday, unless I manage to find a copy at the San Francisco Airport

HA HA! I ordered mine off Amazon. with Prime and some saved up points it'll be delivered Tuesday and I don't have to pay for it.  Yays.

Points?

[Sheilbh]

I don't agree that this Judt (in Post-War or elsewhere) assigns any blame to Truman or to the west for the Cold War. He considers the CW to have been inevitable. The alliance between the west and the SU was, in his word an "aberration". Emnity between the capitalist, liberal democracies and an authoritarian, communist one was the natural state of things. Thus there is no blame to attribute, save to those naive enough to believe that the cold war was avoidable.

Sorry, bad phrasing on my part. The official version which is now the norm (in Judt and, earlier, in Thomas) is that there were structural reasons for the Cold War, not least the nature of Bolshevism and that if any individual exacerbated it, it was Stalin.

I think a common view before then - drawing on American sources like the New Dealers and people around Roosevelt - who were quite naive about the USSR was that Western 'provocations' and Truman's bungling especially helped ruin the wartime alliance. In addition there was a more cynical, realist British view that informed that history that the USSR's demands were understandable and manageable. Now the view has swung back to the official version, but I think Thomas's book is one of the first in that revision.

But how could it be a  "a provocative and confrontational act" if they treated the Soviet and yet their closest ally in a broadly similar fashion ?

The Anglo-American relationship was worse in 1945-6 than at any other point in the post-war era. We weren't really close allies in the way we were during the war or became after NATO was instituted.

The Soviet (and UK) economies were on 100% war footings.  There had been discussion about lend-lease continuing for a period of time after the end of hostilities (though certainly nothing binding) in order to allow for a transition to a peace-time economy.  But shortly after VJ-Day it ended immediately.

There's more to it I'll come back to. But also the manner of ending it was just awful. The order came two days after VE day to end lend-lease except for goods essential for the war against Japan (which the USSR had agreed to enter) or for construction projects underway. This was interpreted very strictly, even though the Administration had wanted to handle it as smoothly as possible and to avoid linking it to the issues in Eastern Europe.

So there were ships travelling to the USSR with lend-lease materials that turned back mid-voyage, others that were being loaded that were emptied. Stalin saw it as an attempt to pressure them and told Hopkins (a naive New Dealer, in fairness) that the US was making a 'fundamental error' trying to soften up Russia like this. But even hardliners within the administration - like Harriman and Kennan - thought it was very badly handled and told the White House that. I think Truman eventually intervened and ordered that ships already being loaded or on their way should continue.

It was something the Soviets mentioned repeatedly (though disingenously) in future negotiations as a sign of how the US viewed relations with them.

[Eddie Teach]

7 weeks, 200 pages a day, I've finished my reread of the Wheel of Time just in time for the last book!

You beat me, I finish book 13 a month ago. Took 2 years to read them all.

I haven't read any of those in ten years.