European Islamophobia

[OttoVonBismarck]

As an American Catholic, who is politically conservative (but I don't consider my Catholicism to be of the conservative kind), generally I'd say for a long time that American Catholics have kept sort of a wall between religion and political belief. That's essentially my philosophy, Catholicism certainly informs my values, but my political positions are based on my conceptions of what I believe is the best societal decision on any given issue. Even on the more religious moral issues that are commingled in politics, like gay marriage and abortion, you see a pretty large number of American Catholics are fine with both, and are fine voting for politicians that vote for both. You could say that any Catholics voting that way are perhaps "Catholics in Name Only" or "Cradle Catholics" who made the gestures and such as kids but couldn't describe Catholicism to you without help from "Catholicism For Dummies"

However in the the past five years and with the rise of the Tea Party I have seen a shift. Several friends of mine in my Parish that "drink the tea" so to speak, are for the first time judging the Catholic Church based on how closely it adheres to Tea Party values. You might think I'm saying that backwards, but I'm not. These guys are starting to turn on the Church in Rome as they see Francis as an insufferable political liberal, and any of the Bishops in America that are not of the political conservative ideology. It's not happened in my parish, but there has been an uptick in tea party people splintering from the Catholic Church to form Catholic Churches unaffiliated with the real Church.

This isn't surprising and I think you're seeing this more and more in America. America is becoming a place of ideological purity, on both the left and the right. And people are rejecting anything that straddles the lines. The reality is it would in fact be difficult to have this ideological political purity, in which you have no personal associations, do no business dealings with, and in a sense wall yourself off from those who have different ideologies and still be comfortable in the Catholic Church in America. I'd say our local church is 50/50 Democrat/Republican, based on my knowledge of the individuals. For the purists on either side sharing the same house is getting harder and harder.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I actually think most Islamophobia in Europe is more about Europe's intrinsic racism and hatred of other cultures. Europe is a place where everyone desperately wanted (to the point of killing over it) to live in countries that are monocultures. I think that people that do things that are totally alien to that culture are naturally despised. For secular Europeans I think the actual practice of Islam is only the smallest part, I think it's much more that Muslims look different, speak different languages typically, wear different clothes, et cetera. They're becoming citizens of these European States, but have no interest in ever becoming Germans, or French, and I think the natural monocultural hatred of things that go against the monoculture are presenting to more casual observations as hatred of Islam. However, I don't think the typical secular European has nearly as much a problem with Islam as they do with these people that look different than them. But Europeans have been educated and hammered into their heads for generations that it's absolutely wrong to hate people just on the basis of things like that. So I think Europeans do not want to admit they hate this guy because he's brown, so instead they can say they hate that he's practicing radical Islam, and if they start doing things to deal with radical Islam, which is a violent threat, and if those things just happen to punish anyone not acting like an appropriate Frenchman, well, that's just an unintended side effect so not bad.

I can't tell you how many French politicians, when pressed on the French burqa ban fell back onto "this is France, these are our laws", what they're saying is "you can't dress that way and be French, so we outlawed it."

[CountDeMoney]

However in the the past five years and with the rise of the Tea Party I have seen a shift. Several friends of mine in my Parish that "drink the tea" so to speak, are for the first time judging the Catholic Church based on how closely it adheres to Tea Party values. You might think I'm saying that backwards, but I'm not. These guys are starting to turn on the Church in Rome as they see Francis as an insufferable political liberal, and any of the Bishops in America that are not of the political conservative ideology. It's not happened in my parish, but there has been an uptick in tea party people splintering from the Catholic Church to form Catholic Churches unaffiliated with the real Church.

You're also in Virginia, so there's that.  Catholics in, say, Massachusetts may not see as much mutual attraction to Tea Party values, or view a Jesuit Pope with as much suspicion, as you see in the Confederacy.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I assume any state north of the dotted dixon line is nothing but apostates and atheist hordes.

[CountDeMoney]

Of course you do. :lookaway:

[crazy canuck]

America is becoming a place of ideological purity, on both the left and the right.

What do you mean by purity? 

[The Brain]

Something admirable.

[Berkut]

America is becoming a place of ideological purity, on both the left and the right.

What do you mean by purity? 

The idea that those who are not as radical as you are not "True Believers" and deserve to be expunged - indeed, often (depending on the relative power and need to coddle them) it is often seen that moderates of your own party are to be hated even more than the radicals of the other party.

And god forbid anyone be "independent" - those are the truly hated.

Examples: Demands that Republicans sign the "no new taxes" pledge, regardless of how transparently stupid it is. Or Dems being driven out for being "Blue Dogs".

[Razgovory]

America is becoming a place of ideological purity, on both the left and the right.

What do you mean by purity? 

The idea that those who are not as radical as you are not "True Believers" and deserve to be expunged - indeed, often (depending on the relative power and need to coddle them) it is often seen that moderates of your own party are to be hated even more than the radicals of the other party.

And god forbid anyone be "independent" - those are the truly hated.

Examples: Demands that Republicans sign the "no new taxes" pledge, regardless of how transparently stupid it is. Or Dems being driven out for being "Blue Dogs".

Most of the blue dogs lost their elections to Republicans, they weren't driven out.  For the most part they took a hard right stand because they thought it would save them.  It did not.  The conservative democrats who left the party because they weren't "pure" enough, did so a long time ago.  They were the Dixiecrats and their issue was segregation.

[dps]

And I was one of the people who was gung-ho about going into Iraq;  I still say it was the right thing to do.  Yeah, we botched up the occupation and rebuilding, but that's a separate issue. 

Lucky for us at the time, Eisenhower and MacArthur didn't think so.

What exactly do you mean here.  Obviously, this isn't something you mean literally, given that neither of those 2 generals were around to give their opinion on the rebuilding of Iraq.  And I certainly don't think you're disputing my statement that we botched the rebuilding.  So what do you mean?

[CountDeMoney]

And I was one of the people who was gung-ho about going into Iraq;  I still say it was the right thing to do.  Yeah, we botched up the occupation and rebuilding, but that's a separate issue. 

Lucky for us at the time, Eisenhower and MacArthur didn't think so.

What exactly do you mean here.  Obviously, this isn't something you mean literally, given that neither of those 2 generals were around to give their opinion on the rebuilding of Iraq.  And I certainly don't think you're disputing my statement that we botched the rebuilding.  So what do you mean?

That the concepts of "occupation" and "rebuilding" are ever "separate issues".  They weren't in Ike's and Mac's time then, and they weren't in 2003, when we embarked on a war plan with no post-war planning whatsoever.

Seemed pretty obvious what I was saying, but not nearly as obvious as the fight you want to pick over it.

[dps]

And I was one of the people who was gung-ho about going into Iraq;  I still say it was the right thing to do.  Yeah, we botched up the occupation and rebuilding, but that's a separate issue. 

Lucky for us at the time, Eisenhower and MacArthur didn't think so.

What exactly do you mean here.  Obviously, this isn't something you mean literally, given that neither of those 2 generals were around to give their opinion on the rebuilding of Iraq.  And I certainly don't think you're disputing my statement that we botched the rebuilding.  So what do you mean?

That the concepts of "occupation" and "rebuilding" are ever "separate issues".  They weren't in Ike's and Mac's time then, and they weren't in 2003, when we embarked on a war plan with no post-war planning whatsoever.

Seemed pretty obvious what I was saying, but not nearly as obvious as the fight you want to pick over it.

First, I wasn't trying to pick a fight--I genuinely didn't know exactly what you were getting at.  I might have gotten it if you'd said "Marshall and King" instead. 

But now that the fight's here:  of course they're separate issues.  Sort of like how deciding on a "Germany first" strategy in WWII still left where (Pas de Calais or Normandy or somewhere else?) and when (1943 or 1944) to open a "Second Front" in Europe as separate issues.

[CountDeMoney]

But now that the fight's here:  of course they're separate issues. 

Nope.

[Syt]

Speaking of Geert Wilders visiting other countries ...

... when he visited the Pegida folks in Dresden he met their leader Lutz Bachmann. For those who don't remember, Bachmann was the guy who thought it funny to post this image of himself on Facebook:



Some papers illustrated the meeting with this snapshot:



Which immediately reminded people of another photo op:



Uhm, wait no. I meant this one:

[Maladict]