Putin Revisionism of the Day

[Malthus]

Words fail.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/11/07/britain-and-france-to-blame-for-adolf-hitlers-march-into-europe-putin-tells-young-historians/

The Molotov - Ribbentrop Pact was okay . . . the UK and the US caused WWII. Nazi/Soviet carve-up of Poland? A base accusation! 

"people still argue about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and accuse the Soviet Union of dividing up Poland."

[MadImmortalMan]

All the cool kids partition Poland.

[Agelastus]

So he's perambulating backwards from his (and the Kremlin's) previous position on the Pact.

While he's not wrong in saying that Munich wrecked any chance of a common front against Hitler (slim as it was) I can't help but think his changing view of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact might just have something to do with the Ukraine.

[Valmy]

Why did Munich ruin any chance to not ally with Hitler?  Lots of countries did not sign pacts with Hitler after Munich so I don't get the compulsion

Besides last I checked there was a front against Hitler.  The Soviets decided to join with Hitler instead.

[Razgovory]

Why did Munich ruin any chance to not ally with Hitler?  Lots of countries did not sign pacts with Hitler after Munich so I don't get the compulsion

Besides last I checked there was a front against Hitler.  The Soviets decided to join with Hitler instead.

I'm fairly certain there was a front against Hitler.  It was called the United Nations and it worked.

[Razgovory]

Hey, who knew that Jim Carrey was at the negotiations?

[Agelastus]

Why did Munich ruin any chance to not ally with Hitler?  Lots of countries did not sign pacts with Hitler after Munich so I don't get the compulsion

Besides last I checked there was a front against Hitler.  The Soviets decided to join with Hitler instead.

I didn't say anything about the choice of the Soviet Union to sign a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany (one that contained secret codicils that rendered it more of an Alliance than anything else.) After all, they could have excercised (or attempted to exercise) neutrality. I said Munich wrecked any chance of a Common Front - ie. one between the Western Allies and the Soviets. Or, perhaps, it would be better to phrase it in a slightly revisionist way, a Common Front between Western and Eastern Europe.

After Munich the Soviet Union didn't (and realistically speaking couldn't) trust a word Britain or France said about being willing to stand up to/fight Hitler. Ergo she had to base her policy towards Hitler on the basis of a one front war with no Allies (note that at the time of Munich Poland had a non-aggression pact with Hitler and seemed more likely to be a German ally than enemy from an external point of view - Poland even snatched a small bit of Czechoslovakia for herself in 1938.)

A genuine non-aggression pact isn't actually all that unreasonable a position for the Soviet Union to take post-Munich vis-a-vis Germany. Of course, the codicils turn it into something rather more serious than a simple non-aggression pact, something much more like an Alliance. Putin's really, really stretching it with his backpedalling here. But then it's a reasonable conclusion to say that this speech was more for domestic than international consumption. So of course his relationship with the facts is becoming somewhat unconvincing.

I'm fairly certain there was a front against Hitler.  It was called the United Nations and it worked.

Raz, you know better than that. We're talking about Munich and the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact era, not the post-Barbarossa world. How about you make a pertinent point instead of trying (and in this case failing) to make the usual cheap shot.

[grumbler]

I'd agree that the Munich Pact confirmed Stalin in his decision to allow the West and Germany fight to mutual exhaustion, but I don't think that there was any practical alternative.  Russia couldn't fight Germany (no common border, and no neighbors willing to risk allowing its troops through-access) in 1938 anyway.  The timing of the Munich Pact v. the Non-Aggression Treaty and the outbreak of the war makes it clear which agreement made it possible for Hitler to move. That is simply undeniable, no matter how much revisionist spin is placed on things.

The interesting question is whether the Allies (including the USSR) would have been better-off or not had the outbreak of war been delayed by a failure of the Soviets and Germans to come to terms in 1939. AIR, Hitler was planning on the war starting in 1944 or so.

[MadImmortalMan]

Hitler couldn't wait. He was losing an arms race.

[CountDeMoney]

AIR, Hitler was planning on the war starting in 1944 or so.

You're good with the sources of obscure quotes;  I can't remember which one it was, but which German general was it that said, at the time of Barbarossa, that "this is the war we were promised we weren't supposed to have until 1944"?

[Tonitrus]

Saw this article today, and thought it'd be a fun practice project.  I got the full transcript and will see if they got anything too far out of context. 

[Admiral Yi]

Hey Tonto, does your reenlistment bonus go up each time Poutine causes more shit?

And down each time we press reset?

[Tonitrus]

From the article, the quotes are correct.  They leave out a second point he makes immediately after, that the USSR knew war was inevitable and needed all the time they could possibly get to modernize and deploy their new weapon systems (T-34, Katyusha rockets).  Implying that justified the M-R Pact.

[Tonitrus]

Hey Tonto, does your reenlistment bonus go up each time Poutine causes more shit?

And down each time we press reset?

It's been gone for about a year now.  Most everyone's are with the overall projected military cuts.

And there's a fair chance I could be out involuntarily next year (for the same reason, nothing bad I did. ) :taxpayer value:

[Valmy]

From the article, the quotes are correct.  They leave out a second point he makes immediately after, that the USSR knew war was inevitable and needed all the time they could possibly get to modernize and deploy their new weapon systems (T-34, Katyusha rockets).  Implying that justified the M-R Pact.

That's a bunch of crap.