Incest a 'fundamental right', German committee says

[crazy canuck]

Berkut, are you seriously contending that a child/parent sexual relationship has the same dynamics as any other sexual relationship between adults?

I think there are lots of "dynamics" involved in relationships between adults, and they are all very different.

So I would say...no?

Ok, so whey do you treat them as being the same?

I don't.

Everything you have posted treats sexual relations between parents and their children as being the same as between any other adults.

[Berkut]

Berkut, are you seriously contending that a child/parent sexual relationship has the same dynamics as any other sexual relationship between adults?

I think there are lots of "dynamics" involved in relationships between adults, and they are all very different.

So I would say...no?

Ok, so whey do you treat them as being the same?

I don't.

Everything you have posted treats sexual relations between parents and their children as being the same as between any other adults.

That is simply not true.

For one, this is not about only parents and their children. That is a fallacy to try to narrow the scope.

Secondly, I have stated time and again that I think incest has perfectly valid social taboos against it, and that I think it is "pretty fucked up". Since I haven't stated that I find all sexual relationships fucked up, it is clear I don't think they are the same.

Just because there are differences doesn't mean that those differences justify legal sanction. You have to show that the difference is such that the restriction on personal liberty is justified. That pointing out that it is different is meaningless And claiming that I have claimed that there isn't any difference is just fallacious. The burden is not on me to show that there is no difference, the burden is on you to show that the difference is material enough to justify legal sanction over personal liberty.

[Barrister]

That is simply not true.

For one, this is not about only parents and their children. That is a fallacy to try to narrow the scope.

Secondly, I have stated time and again that I think incest has perfectly valid social taboos against it, and that I think it is "pretty fucked up". Since I haven't stated that I find all sexual relationships fucked up, it is clear I don't think they are the same.

Just because there are differences doesn't mean that those differences justify legal sanction. You have to show that the difference is such that the restriction on personal liberty is justified. That pointing out that it is different is meaningless And claiming that I have claimed that there isn't any difference is just fallacious. The burden is not on me to show that there is no difference, the burden is on you to show that the difference is material enough to justify legal sanction over personal liberty.

Please elaborate - what is "pretty fucked up" about incest?  What is it about incest you find troubling?

[Berkut]

I suspect that in the vast majority of cases adults being sexually attracted to their immediate relatives is clearly indicative of some kind of emotional disfunction. I am not a psychologist of course, so I concede that I'd don't really know if that is true.

But I think the odds of a incestuous relationship being a healthy relationship are rather low in most cases, unusual circumstances excepted.

[Martinus]

Question to BB, would you support criminalising adultery?

What about criminalising having sex with someone who has a past history of violence against you?

Both, statistically, are more likely to be an unhealthy relationship than an incestuous one.

[Martinus]

I suspect that in the vast majority of cases adults being sexually attracted to their immediate relatives is clearly indicative of some kind of emotional disfunction. I am not a psychologist of course, so I concede that I'd don't really know if that is true.

But I think the odds of a incestuous relationship being a healthy relationship are rather low in most cases, unusual circumstances excepted.

I think attraction between siblings - especially if they did not grow up together - could have a potential to be healthy in many circumstances.

[Berkut]

Them not growing up together is one of those rather unusual circumstances.

[Martinus]

Them not growing up together is one of those rather unusual circumstances.

I am not so sure. I would be interested in seeing the statistics. The biological instinct against mating with family you have grown up together with is still a strong one. I would not be surprised if the majority of cases actually caught by anti-incest laws were the ones with siblings not growing up together.

[Martinus]

The thing is - and to me this is a parallel to the treatment of homosexuality in the past - because incest is a taboo, I suspect there aren't that many credible studies or statistics about it.

It could very well be that if you take people who feel sexual attraction to their close family members (a minority even smaller than gays and lesbians, I suspect), and remove people who are involved in sexual abuse of a minor, the majority of those who are left could very well be siblings who did not grow up together. But we don't know that because everyone is afraid of asking that question.

[Berkut]

The thing is - and to me this is a parallel to the treatment of homosexuality in the past - because incest is a taboo, I suspect there aren't that many credible studies or statistics about it.

It could very well be that if you take people who feel sexual attraction to their close family members (a minority even smaller than gays and lesbians, I suspect), and remove people who are involved in sexual abuse of a minor, the majority of those who are left could very well be siblings who did not grow up together. But we don't know that because everyone is afraid of asking that question.

To me that isn't that interesting though - not growing up together would obviously remove much of the issues with why I feel it is a dis-functional relationship.

But that is a case that isn't really interesting to me, because it is less of an issue...it is almost not even "incest" at all.

[Siege]

Metallica on their ass!

(For you the unmetallyinitiated that means Kill'em All, the name of Mets first album, 1983.)

[Martinus]

The thing is - and to me this is a parallel to the treatment of homosexuality in the past - because incest is a taboo, I suspect there aren't that many credible studies or statistics about it.

It could very well be that if you take people who feel sexual attraction to their close family members (a minority even smaller than gays and lesbians, I suspect), and remove people who are involved in sexual abuse of a minor, the majority of those who are left could very well be siblings who did not grow up together. But we don't know that because everyone is afraid of asking that question.

To me that isn't that interesting though - not growing up together would obviously remove much of the issues with why I feel it is a dis-functional relationship.

But that is a case that isn't really interesting to me, because it is less of an issue...it is almost not even "incest" at all.

I think this is interesting, in that if my assumptions are right, then criminalisation of incest would actually mainly hurt people who are not even in "dysfunctional" or "icky" relationships, which would be more the reason to abolish it.

[Siege]

Incest destroys our genetic heritage.
Incest is the social relationship of the failed social group.
Incest is failure to succeed.

[Martinus]

Incest destroys our genetic heritage.
Incest is the social relationship of the failed social group.
Incest is failure to succeed.

I never know with you whether you are joking or you are so out of it. 

[Eddie Teach]

Incest destroys our genetic heritage.

Technically, it preserves it from being diluted.