Human Rights Watch Warns of 'Authoritarian Drift' in Turkey

[celedhring]

"Democracy" is more than just electing your rulers though, in order for that to be effective it comes with a lot of attached conditions (free speech, free press, political freedoms), that are the cornerstone to avoid tyrannical governments from taking power. And if an abusive government came to power, democracy and the free flow of discussion become the elements that make possible its removal. Sure, people are quick to point how Hitler won an election, but have you thought why was he so quick as to remove free elections* altogether after he won?


*Nazi Germany had elections after 1933, but only with Nazi-approved candidates.

[crazy canuck]

You can punctiliously adhere to the rule of law while entirely denying the rights of whole rafts of citizens.

I think our respective understanding of the Rule of Law differs.  If one does adhere to the Rule of Law then it is quite impossible to deny rights to a large amount of citizens.  I think you are thinking of the application of legislation which is something quite different and which has the potential of abouse by the tyrrany of the majority.  Or in the others cases you cited, the tyrrany of the powerful.

[Syt]

Democracy, even free elections, are meaningless without means of protecting the opposition (I recall in school we learned that the opposition was "a government in waiting") and minorities.

Unfortunately, there seems to be a trend in some countries these days to take the result of one election and the winning party then using it to legitimize curbing the chances for the opposition to take over. "The people have decided!"

[crazy canuck]

Democracy, even free elections, are meaningless without means of protecting the opposition (I recall in school we learned that the opposition was "a government in waiting") and minorities.

Unfortunately, there seems to be a trend in some countries these days to take the result of one election and the winning party then using it to legitimize curbing the chances for the opposition to take over. "The people have decided!"

Agreed.  Sheilbh's faith in democracy can only exist with the necessary supports to maintain a real choice for voters.  Those necessary supports are the very essence of the Rule of Law.  Otherwise we end up having a democracy akin to the Crimea referendum....

[Martinus]

The problem with democracy in the West is that it developed during several centuries of bloodshed, oppression and discrimination - to paraphrase Churchill, Westerns did the right thing and chose liberal democracy after exhausting all the other alternatives - and also it developed during relative isolation and then supremacy of the West. These conditions are impossible to replicate.

The real moral conundrum when it comes to countries that did not go through that process is whether we insist on them choosing liberal democracy just because we say so (in which case it tends not to stick), we let them go through the process themselves (in which case, this means they get to do intolerable things on their way there), or we choose to support undemocratic but modernising regimes. I don't think there is a simple answer, to be honest.

The fact that there are other world and regional powers who actively oppose these goals does not help either.

Edit: plus now we have 24 hour media cycles and hysterical public, so any policy that takes decades to succeed is just not viable.

[Zanza]

The claim that democracy is a uniquely western concept is not supported by studies as there are well-working democracies in all parts of the world, except the Middle East, Central Asia and Central Africa. Here is the Economist's democracy index (from 2012, so some may be outdated e.g. Thailand) for example:

[Martinus]

The claim that democracy is a uniquely western concept is not supported by studies as there are well-working democracies in all parts of the world, except the Middle East, Central Asia and Central Africa. Here is the Economist's democracy index (from 2012, so some may be outdated e.g. Thailand) for example:

I don't think we are saying that democracy is a uniquely Western concept - just that it has been a hit and miss outside of the West. Even on this map, the only countries that seem to have a well-functioning democracy outside of the West seem to be Japan, South Korea, India and South Africa - in each case there is quite a unique reason why this is the case.

[Tonitrus]

Most of those democracies outside of the West were pretty much forced on them by the West, or heavily influenced from there(i.e. India as a former British colony). 

Mongolia is a hopeful exception.  And I have my doubts about Indonesia, but will be optimistic.

[Valmy]

My Hemisphere is better than your hemisphere.

[Tonitrus]

And why is Bosnia less democratic than her neighbors?  I thought we saved them from those evil invaders and ethic cleansers. 

[Syt]

And why is Bosnia less democratic than her neighbors?  I thought we saved them from those evil invaders and ethic cleansers. 

http://www.idea.int/sod/worldwide/summary_bosnia_assess.cfm

Key Recommendations
- Constitutional changes that strengthen the state and create a functioning system are needed.
- Unified health care, a law on higher education, and urgent actions addressing the Roma people's basic necessities are required.
- De-ethnification of political parties needs to take place.
- The involvement of international moderators needs to decrease while at the same time increasing the accountability and legitimacy of domestic institutions.
- The police forces need to undergo reform, centralization and depoliticization.
- Laws on local self-governance must be passed in order to enhance communication between citizenship and government.

(Detailed assessment under the link.)

It probably also doesn't help that the Serb Republic in BiH kinda, sorta, are dicks and block a lot of things and slowly work towards independence.

[Martinus]

Those bloody Serbs. 

[Martinus]

My Hemisphere is better than your hemisphere.

That's because your hemisphere is mostly water.

[Eddie Teach]

That's because your hemisphere is mostly water.

Both are.

[Tonitrus]

Our water is more apolitical.