The world goes crazy - and what is the West doing?

Started by Syt, September 02, 2014, 11:16:19 PM

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KRonn

Good article. It brings up some new ways of looking at things or at least some items and issues that seem to be overlooked in the rush of events and in the debates on how to respond.

Ideologue

Quote from: Martinus on September 03, 2014, 01:50:34 AM
Sooner or later, the dirty communist traitor will always come out of Ide.

I assume you refer to the special Esto-American Relationship that so defined transatlantic trade and culture during the 20th century and beyond?
Kinemalogue
Current reviews: The 'Burbs (9/10); Gremlins 2: The New Batch (9/10); John Wick: Chapter 2 (9/10); A Cure For Wellness (4/10)

grumbler

Quote from: Ideologue on September 03, 2014, 01:01:57 AM
And?  I care why?  It's not my job or my country's job to fight Russia that far into its sphere of influence, courting Global Thermonuclear War over Talinn.

I don't think you quite get what this "NATO" thing is all about.  You talk about it as though it were some gang of superheros, with you one of them.

I think anyone with an ounce of understanding his history would know enough to reject your argument that there are "historically Russian territories," the restoration of whose boundaries is inevitable unless resisted by Thermonuclear War.  "Historically," there is no Russia.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

grumbler

Quote from: Viking on September 03, 2014, 06:24:09 AM
Quote from: PJL on September 03, 2014, 06:19:15 AM
Actually isn't the whole problem is that Russia's sphere of influence ISN'T clearly defined, and that deciding what is and isn't in that sphere is the reason for the whole conflict in Ukraine. At least in the Cold War, there was an agreement before the end of World War 2 about whom the Soviets and Allies could influence in Europe (for good or ill), which meant that there was no conflict between the two sides, even to the point of ignoring rebellions within the Warsaw Pact.

No such deal was formally done after the Soviet collapse and it's the SOI of NATO/EU and Russia which is being decided now.

Not really, there was a deal, NATO though that meant no NATO bases in the east, Russia thought that meant no NATO membership for countries in the east.

In this deal (which you need to provides cites for, BTW), in whose SOI did Ukraine fall?  In other words, which side is violating the "deal" with the current interference and backing of sides in Ukraine?
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

jimmy olsen

Quote from: grumbler on September 03, 2014, 08:48:13 AM
I think anyone with an ounce of understanding his history would know enough to reject your argument that there are "historically Russian territories," the restoration of whose boundaries is inevitable unless resisted by Thermonuclear War.  "Historically," there is no Russia.
What exactly do you mean by that?
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

alfred russel

Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 03, 2014, 08:56:45 AM
Quote from: grumbler on September 03, 2014, 08:48:13 AM
I think anyone with an ounce of understanding his history would know enough to reject your argument that there are "historically Russian territories," the restoration of whose boundaries is inevitable unless resisted by Thermonuclear War.  "Historically," there is no Russia.
What exactly do you mean by that?

Russia is a social construct.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

There's a fine line between salvation and drinking poison in the jungle.

I'm embarrassed. I've been making the mistake of associating with you. It won't happen again. :)
-garbon, February 23, 2014

The Minsky Moment

The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Viking

First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Zoupa

Every nation is a social construct. That's a bs argument.

garbon

"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Razgovory

Quote from: garbon on September 03, 2014, 07:33:26 PM
I wish Zoupa was just a social construct. -_-

Mental illness is a social construct used to divide the civilized world from the "other".  I tried to explain this to the guys at the asylum, but they wouldn't have it.  I still had to take my meds and go to bed at 10. :(
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Ideologue

So this it: Languish finally just degenerated into JDU.  Sad day. :(

Mihali knows what I mean.  Actually, he probably doesn't.
Kinemalogue
Current reviews: The 'Burbs (9/10); Gremlins 2: The New Batch (9/10); John Wick: Chapter 2 (9/10); A Cure For Wellness (4/10)

CountDeMoney

Now, now people.  Let's put all this infighting aside, and agree that the original article is a Euroweenie piece of shit.

garbon

Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 03, 2014, 11:58:36 PM
Now, now people.  Let's put all this infighting aside, and agree that the original article is a Euroweenie piece of shit.

I thought the original article was just saying that we actually need to figure out what we want to do in a coherent fashion. :unsure:
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Grey Fox

The West has no money to save people that hate it from themselves.
Colonel Caliga is Awesome.