The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[OttoVonBismarck]

Sure, and I generally dislike police by the way, as people, but if you're wrestling with some guy and there is a reasonable belief that he may be about to do you great bodily harm and is ignoring repeated commands to stop struggling I think that's a reasonable use of deadly force.

I'm also a big proponent of holding police accountable for what happened prior to the moment of deadly force usage. In both the Eric Garner case and the Tamir Rice case I feel police could have responded differently to avoid those situations entirely.

In Ferguson, I think Wilson could have responded differently after being attacked and avoided having to shoot anyone. Namely, when a dude jumped at him through his window, he could have driven down the road, called for back up. He chose to continually escalate right back at Brown. But I don't generally condemn Wilson because I think his situation started off with him being very shocked at being attacked.

The Phoenix cop was there investigating a tip of a drug dealer, which he found, and then he pursued him when he fled. That's pretty standard COPS episode stuff, it only got deadly because when he caught up to him the guy kept fighting him and he felt a hard object he confused for a gun pushing against him, and he thought the guy was trying to pull it out.

Normally running from police and resisting arrest shouldn't get anyone killed, but when those things create a scenario in which a "reasonable officer" would fear for their lives, then I'm fine with the outcome being one dead suspect. In Phoenix I'm making a presumption the officer's story is materially true, it may of course, but lies. In Ferguson I'm inferring from the available public evidence I've bothered to read what I think most likely happened--Wilson tried to stop Brown with a verbal order, Brown and him traded words and Brown attacked him, then he pursued Brown after the fight left the car and in the moment of extreme duress he shot and killed Brown when he saw Brown turn back towards him. Brown may or may not have charged him at that point.

[CountDeMoney]

Damn, Otto.



As a cop, don't you at some point have to question whether you're resorting to violence too hastily? It's a big responsibility, the sanction to use violence on another citizen. I think I'd be pretty careful with it if I were a cop.

I dunno, I made more than my share of arrests over the course of 2 1/2 years.  Did a lot of running, a lot of chasing, and a lot of brawling.  Wound up in the ER more than once, because that's part of the deal.  Replaced a lot of uniform shirts and pants.  Had my light bar shot out from a stray shot.  But I never had to kill anybody to get the handcuffs on.   I guess my training was from a different generation, where you didn't unholster your weapon unless you had a specific reason.   

I really don't know what's going on now in today's police department academies, except they're hiring too many combat veterans that are treating Staten Island like Ramadi.  And soldiers do not make good police officers.  You're not fighting a low-intensity insurgency waiting for the next IED or sniper, regardless of what the crackers so afraid of black people may think.

Sure, and I generally dislike police by the way, as people, but if you're wrestling with some guy and there is a reasonable belief that he may be about to do you great bodily harm and is ignoring repeated commands to stop struggling I think that's a reasonable use of deadly force.

You use the force necessary to effect the arrest, which is not deadly force.  You know that.

[citizen k]

Damn, Otto.



As a cop, don't you at some point have to question whether you're resorting to violence too hastily? It's a big responsibility, the sanction to use violence on another citizen. I think I'd be pretty careful with it if I were a cop.

And join Oath Keepers.

[Queequeg]

The Cleveland officer's background as a suburban cop. It seems very Pryzbylewski:
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/cleveland_police_officer_who_s.html#incart_m-rpt-1

Pryzbylewski was a great officer and a wonderful teacher.   

[Neil]

The Cleveland officer's background as a suburban cop. It seems very Pryzbylewski:
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/cleveland_police_officer_who_s.html#incart_m-rpt-1

Pryzbylewski was a great officer and a wonderful teacher.   

He definitely had his uses, but he tended to get out of his depth on the streets.

[garbon]

Some of the NYC protesters have now made a list of demands.

[Syt]

The Cleveland officer's background as a suburban cop. It seems very Pryzbylewski:
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/cleveland_police_officer_who_s.html#incart_m-rpt-1

His personnel file is linked there - the interesting part starts at page 59. Basically, he had a major breakdown on the shooting range because of relationship issues. When issued his gun he was asked to put a lock on his locker. More than a week later he still hadn't done so, keeping his gun in the unlocked locker. When confronted that he'd said he'd get one he replied, "Oh, I meant I have a lock at home." When issued his bulletproof vest and asked to wear it to get used to it, he was later found to have taken it off because he found it too warm. Later he was asked to sit in dispatch, but left. He first claimed that the dispatchers had said it was ok, but later confessed that he had done it of his own accord.

The Deputy Chief concludes that he's emotionally immature, that his breakdown on the shooting range was most troubling, that he seems to consider instructions from superiors to be optional, and that while he claims to like to work for the Independence PD he seems to keep his options open if something better comes around.

[CountDeMoney]

Cleveland PD will pay out for that idiot.  Negligent hiring.

Don't know why he wasn't flushed out.  I've seen candidates bounced for less than that.  And if there's anybody that has any more pull than an academy chief, it's the firearms instructor.  If he says somebody has to go, he has to go.

[Sheilbh]

His personnel file is linked there - the interesting part starts at page 59. Basically, he had a major breakdown on the shooting range because of relationship issues. When issued his gun he was asked to put a lock on his locker. More than a week later he still hadn't done so, keeping his gun in the unlocked locker. When confronted that he'd said he'd get one he replied, "Oh, I meant I have a lock at home." When issued his bulletproof vest and asked to wear it to get used to it, he was later found to have taken it off because he found it too warm. Later he was asked to sit in dispatch, but left. He first claimed that the dispatchers had said it was ok, but later confessed that he had done it of his own accord.

The Deputy Chief concludes that he's emotionally immature, that his breakdown on the shooting range was most troubling, that he seems to consider instructions from superiors to be optional, and that while he claims to like to work for the Independence PD he seems to keep his options open if something better comes around.

At which point he decided he wanted 'more action' and got a transfer to Cleveland

[Syt]

Well, he didn't exactly get transferred; he "voluntarily" resigned from the IPD and then later applied for a job in Cleveland.

[The Brain]

The Cleveland officer's background as a suburban cop. It seems very Pryzbylewski:
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/cleveland_police_officer_who_s.html#incart_m-rpt-1

His personnel file is linked there - the interesting part starts at page 59. Basically, he had a major breakdown on the shooting range because of relationship issues. When issued his gun he was asked to put a lock on his locker. More than a week later he still hadn't done so, keeping his gun in the unlocked locker. When confronted that he'd said he'd get one he replied, "Oh, I meant I have a lock at home." When issued his bulletproof vest and asked to wear it to get used to it, he was later found to have taken it off because he found it too warm. Later he was asked to sit in dispatch, but left. He first claimed that the dispatchers had said it was ok, but later confessed that he had done it of his own accord.

The Deputy Chief concludes that he's emotionally immature, that his breakdown on the shooting range was most troubling, that he seems to consider instructions from superiors to be optional, and that while he claims to like to work for the Independence PD he seems to keep his options open if something better comes around.

He wouldn't last 5 mins in the nuclear industry.

[Ed Anger]

His personnel file is linked there - the interesting part starts at page 59. Basically, he had a major breakdown on the shooting range because of relationship issues. When issued his gun he was asked to put a lock on his locker. More than a week later he still hadn't done so, keeping his gun in the unlocked locker. When confronted that he'd said he'd get one he replied, "Oh, I meant I have a lock at home." When issued his bulletproof vest and asked to wear it to get used to it, he was later found to have taken it off because he found it too warm. Later he was asked to sit in dispatch, but left. He first claimed that the dispatchers had said it was ok, but later confessed that he had done it of his own accord.

The Deputy Chief concludes that he's emotionally immature, that his breakdown on the shooting range was most troubling, that he seems to consider instructions from superiors to be optional, and that while he claims to like to work for the Independence PD he seems to keep his options open if something better comes around.

At which point he decided he wanted 'more action' and got a transfer to Cleveland

Independence Ohio isn't exactly Hill Street Blues.

[jimmy olsen]

I wouldn't call incompetence in Cleavland shocking, but some of the stuff listed here is ridiculous.

Large excerpts detailing individual incidents can be found embedded here.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/04/cleveland-police-doj_n_6270220.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000013

Feds Find Shocking, Systemic Brutality, Incompetence In Cleveland Police Department

Posted: 12/04/2014 1:42 pm EST Updated: 12/05/2014 12:59 am EST

WASHINGTON -- In recent years, Cleveland police officers have punched a 13-year-old boy who was in handcuffs for shoplifting and shot at an unarmed kidnapping victim who was wearing only his underwear, according to disturbing allegations released Thursday by the Justice Department. The agency's investigation found that officers in Cleveland routinely use unjustifiable force against not only criminals and suspects, but also innocent victims of crimes.

The so-called "pattern or practice" report from the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division was released Thursday afternoon as DOJ and the city announced plans to develop a court-enforceable agreement that would impose an independent monitor on the Cleveland Division of Police.

"Accountability and legitimacy are essential for communities to trust their police departments, and for there to be genuine collaboration between police and the citizens they serve," said Attorney General Eric Holder in a press conference on Thursday.

Holder announced the measure during his trip to Cleveland, where police officers fatally shot an unarmed black child last month. In Cleveland, Holder has attended a series of meetings about rebuilding community trust between law enforcement and the public, even as protests erupted nationwide over the non-indictment of police officers who killed Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, and Eric Garner in New York City. Following his visit to Cleveland, Holder intends to visit Chicago and Philadelphia, as well as Memphis, Tennessee, and Oakland, California, for additional roundtable meetings.

In his remarks Thursday, Holder said that he and President Barack Obama believe there is more to be done on the issue of use of lethal force by police departments.

The Justice Department began investigating the use of force in Cleveland's police division in March 2013. A few months prior, Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson had requested that the agency look into the issue. Jackson's request came after a high-profile police chase in November 2012 that resulted in Cleveland police dispatching at least 62 vehicles, firing 137 bullets and killing two unarmed black suspects, who each sustained more than 20 gunshot wounds.

There have been numerous other occasions when Cleveland police are alleged to have used excessive force. Most recently, on Nov. 22, a Cleveland police officer fatally shot 12-year-old Tamir Rice, who was playing with a toy gun in a park. Footage of the incident shows the officer firing his gun within two seconds of pulling up to the boy in his car. The Guardian reported on Thursday that Timothy Loehmann, the officer who shot Tamir, was judged unfit for police work in 2012 by his then-employer, the police department of Independence, Ohio. An Independence official described Loehmann's "dismal" handgun performance in an internal memo.

According to the DOJ report, Cleveland police officers "carelessly fire their weapons, placing themselves, subjects, and bystanders at unwarranted risk of serious injury or death." For example, the agency pointed to an incident in 2011 where officers "fired 24 rounds in a residential neighborhoods," with six rounds striking houses and 14 hitting parked cars. In another case, "an officer's decision to draw his gun while trying to apprehend an unarmed hit-and-run suspect resulted in him accidentally shooting the man in the neck."

The Justice Department also claimed to have identified "several cases" where "officers shot or shot at people who did not pose an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury to officers or others." For example, in 2013, the report noted that police shot at a kidnapping victim after he fled from his assailants wearing only his boxers. The sergeant said he believed the victim had a weapon because he raised his hand.

In another case detailed by the Justice Department, a 300-pound officer punched a 13-year-old boy who was handcuffed inside a police car and kicking the door. The officer, whom the report describes as 8 inches taller than the boy, punched him "three to four times" until he was "'stunned/dazed' and had a bloody nose."

The agency noted that "supervisors' analyses of use of force incidents is superficial at best and, at its worst, appears to be designed to justify their subordinates' unreasonable use of force." For example, in the case of the teenage boy, the agency said the officer's supervisor "failed to even consider that the punches might have been retaliatory (perhaps because the officer was angry) and unnecessary to secure the boy."

The DOJ report stated that "each and every time we saw officers write that they had tased a handcuffed suspect, the use of force was approved up the chain of command." In one case, an officer wrote that he gave a man an electrical shock to prevent him from falling after he fled in handcuffs -- even though, as the report noted, "suspects normally fall after being tased." It went on to say that "justifying the use of a Taser to stop a [fleeing], handcuffed person from falling is simply not credible."

The report cited another case in which officers shocked a handcuffed suspect, prompting him to "fall face-first onto asphalt, shattering four front teeth and causing facial contusions."

A Cleveland police officer also administered an electric shock to a man who was deaf and suicidal, according to the DOJ report. The man had committed no crime and may not have understood instructions.

The report also said that the culture of the Cleveland police force promotes an "us-against-them" mentality. It cited the example of a sign in one district station that identifies the station as a "forward operating base" -- which DOJ noted is a military term for a small outpost in a war zone.


The report concluded that the police department's "method of policing contributes to the community's distrust of and lack of respect for officers."

The report also noted that while it did not make a finding regarding racial profiling, "many African-Americans reported that they believe [Cleveland police] officers are verbally and physically aggressive toward them because of their race."

Ironically, last week, a number of white and Hispanic officers who were disciplined for the Nov. 2012 shooting filed a lawsuit, alleging that they were punished especially harshly because the shooting victims were black and they, the officers, were not.

Read the full DOJ report here.

CORRECTION: This article has been edited to make clear that an incident cited by the report in which a handcuffed suspect broke four teeth after being shocked is not the same incident in which police used a Taser to shock a fleeing, handcuffed man

[OttoVonBismarck]

I dunno, I made more than my share of arrests over the course of 2 1/2 years.  Did a lot of running, a lot of chasing, and a lot of brawling.  Wound up in the ER more than once, because that's part of the deal.  Replaced a lot of uniform shirts and pants.  Had my light bar shot out from a stray shot.  But I never had to kill anybody to get the handcuffs on.   I guess my training was from a different generation, where you didn't unholster your weapon unless you had a specific reason.   

I really don't know what's going on now in today's police department academies, except they're hiring too many combat veterans that are treating Staten Island like Ramadi.  And soldiers do not make good police officers.  You're not fighting a low-intensity insurgency waiting for the next IED or sniper, regardless of what the crackers so afraid of black people may think.

I agree on combat veterans. I have a friend who is getting ready to hit his 20 in the chair force that isn't a combat veteran (closest he's come is a base in Saudi) and has been an MP almost the entire time. FWIW we actually talked about the Ferguson situation the other day over some whiskey and his opinion was that "Wilson was probably in the clear, but also a giant pussy." His opinion was that his job as a cop is to win fist fights, not lose them--and that he likes using a stick if someone won't go down.

I wonder to some degree in municipal police departments if all the videos of cops beating people with batons and TASERing them has lead to fear of using these tools or appropriately training in their use. My friend the MP probably doesn't have to worry about citizen video bloggers recording him doing a hard take down on some drunk shit head and maybe using a baton on his arm or something.

You use the force necessary to effect the arrest, which is not deadly force.  You know that.

All I'm saying hombre, is that if the dude had him tackled and legit thought he could feel him trying to work a gun out of his pants, at that point I'm okay with him going to lethal force. If that was his genuine belief and it's reasonably possible a pill bottle could feel like a gun. I don't know what a pill bottle would feel like under some dude's clothes I'm pinning to the ground, though.

[CountDeMoney]

I agree on combat veterans. I have a friend who is getting ready to hit his 20 in the chair force that isn't a combat veteran (closest he's come is a base in Saudi) and has been an MP almost the entire time. FWIW we actually talked about the Ferguson situation the other day over some whiskey and his opinion was that "Wilson was probably in the clear, but also a giant pussy." His opinion was that his job as a cop is to win fist fights, not lose them--and that he likes using a stick if someone won't go down.

I wonder to some degree in municipal police departments if all the videos of cops beating people with batons and TASERing them has lead to fear of using these tools or appropriately training in their use. My friend the MP probably doesn't have to worry about citizen video bloggers recording him doing a hard take down on some drunk shit head and maybe using a baton on his arm or something.

I think it's become part and parcel with a degradation of the prioritizing the continuum of force combined with additional "tools" like tasers getting involved, recruiting and training. 

My Dad's generation, you had the baton and the revolver, and you dragged the perp's ass all the way back to the call box any way you could.  My generation, pepper spray was tossed in so you didn't have to thump or shoot little old ladies with kitchen knives.  Today, you've got Tasers added as well.  Combine that with a fear of legal issues, the drop in in-service training for defensive tactics ("you've got training scheduled on CDS identification instead!"), and tossing in a bunch of Iraqi and Afghani war veterans used to combat adrenaline, you see a shitload of cops that are simply not putting their hands on people, and when they do, they're doing it wrong.    Like compression of the windpipe. 

All I'm saying hombre, is that if the dude had him tackled and legit thought he could feel him trying to work a gun out of his pants, at that point I'm okay with him going to lethal force. If that was his genuine belief and it's reasonably possible a pill bottle could feel like a gun. I don't know what a pill bottle would feel like under some dude's clothes I'm pinning to the ground, though.

Had an old sergeant, one left over from the '60s that had the kind of flat top haircut you could set your watch to, he always said if you're going to shoot somebody, you 1) never do it in the back, and 2) there damned well better be a knife or a gun.  You shot him because you thought he had a gun?  Did you see a gun?  Was a gun recovered at the scene?  No?  Then, if you didn't get fired, you knew it was your ass on a desk for the next couple years, doing staff review or evidence control, or heaven forbid, juveniles.  "Yeah, that's Brown.  He fucked up with that bank thing on Howard Street last year, remember?"  Nowadays, it's all lessons not learned and accountability not answered.  But cities keep paying out the nose for lawsuits, and putting the same cops back into circulation. 

And I don't buy the argument that the "bad guys" are more armed, or better armed, now than they were 20 or 40 years ago as an excuse for ignoring the continuum of force and maintaining firearms discipline.  Shit's always been dangerous, and study after study on line of duty deaths have shown that cops that die (when not involved in motor vehicle accidents) in most cases do so because they fucked up with judgement in a tactical situation.   But that's not an excuse to toss training and procedure out the window and go straight to the Glock in every case, because then you have nowhere else to go but one direction.