The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[DGuller]

Maybe it's a more effective tactic against an actual armed perp, which as far as they knew the kid was?  I don't know, I'm not a police tactics expert.  It does seem like you only consider one side of the risk, and discount the other side of the risk of letting an actual gunman present danger to others for longer than necessary.

Yeah, the multiple risks of letting an armed boy run loose in an emply playground for that vital few seconds. 

Note that at no time was there any claim the kid was actually doing anything with said gun other than "scaring" people with it.

Everyone is smart at a distance, in hindsight, and with full information.  It's a little more difficult down at ground zero, where you don't know ahead of time which mistake you should fear making.  That was my point.  All the people here discussing how to best identify a toy gun from a real gun seem to think that there aren't any side effects from making the mistake the other way, and being indecisive when the situation calls for quick response.

[Neil]

I played with many toy guns in my childhood, and not once did I consider what the police might have thought of it.

We were kids a long, long time ago.  It's a different era now.

Tell you what, I'll give you back soft touch policing if you give me Martinus being thrown in jail for his misdeeds, manned space exploration and American conservatives who were capable of reason.

[The Brain]

The Predator could identify a toy gun.

[Neil]

The Predator could identify a toy gun.

I would be in favour of using Predator in a law enforcement capacity.

[The Brain]

The Predator could identify a toy gun.

I would be in favour of using Predator in a law enforcement capacity.

[Neil]

The Predator could identify a toy gun.

I would be in favour of using Predator in a law enforcement capacity.

Mind you, they'd still have the same problem the first time Predator pulled out some 12-year old's spine.

[Jacob]

We were kids a long, long time ago.  It's a different era now.

Tell you what, I'll give you back soft touch policing if you give me Martinus being thrown in jail for his misdeeds, manned space exploration and American conservatives who were capable of reason.

If it were mine to give, I'd give you all three of those.

[crazy canuck]

How about stopping further away from the kid so that the cops are not putting themselves in immediate danger in case the gun is real.

Most guns can shoot people other than cops.  If I'm around an armed perp, I may not necessarily want the cops to do what puts them in least danger.

I dont see anyone else in the playground.  And the person who phoned it in said it was likely not real.

[crazy canuck]

Tell you what, I'll give you back soft touch policing if you give me Martinus being thrown in jail for his misdeeds, manned space exploration and American conservatives who were capable of reason.

Keep dreaming the impossible dream my friend.

[mongers]

BB - and other Canadian lawyers - out of curiosity how do you think a similar incident would play out in Canada?

Are the cops protocols of engagement (or whatever they're called) such that they're likely to approach the kid in a similar manner? If they ended up shooting the kid dead in a similar fashion, what are the likely repercussions in you estimation?

It's funny, I have no problem shooting from the hip about topics I have only a passing familiarity with.

But since I have written a number of opinions on potential charges against police officers, I would want to see all the witness statements before coming to an opinion.  Sometimes it's what seems like innocuous details at first are what decides whether or not to prosecute.

The thing to remember is that in Canada, given we have orders of magnitude less handguns than in the US, police can afford to be a little more trusting than in the US.

Here's the RCMP Use of Force policy if you're curious.  Ultimately though it always comes down to what the officer was perceiving at the moment in question.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ccaps-spcca/cew-ai/imim-migi-eng.htm

This makes no sense, in an incident exactly like this one, either in the US or in Canada there are precisely the same number of handguns in the hands of the suspect, one. Yet you say the police will behave differently in the same circumstance.

You seem to be justify the response in America as some self-fulfilling prophecy;, because there are so many guns, you have to assume the very worst in everyone, including children and get the drop on them come what may.

It's almost a return to the Wild West 'legendary' times.

[crazy canuck]

It's almost a return to the Wild West 'legendary' times.

BB lives in that part of the Country.

[Neil]

BB - and other Canadian lawyers - out of curiosity how do you think a similar incident would play out in Canada?

Are the cops protocols of engagement (or whatever they're called) such that they're likely to approach the kid in a similar manner? If they ended up shooting the kid dead in a similar fashion, what are the likely repercussions in you estimation?

It's funny, I have no problem shooting from the hip about topics I have only a passing familiarity with.

But since I have written a number of opinions on potential charges against police officers, I would want to see all the witness statements before coming to an opinion.  Sometimes it's what seems like innocuous details at first are what decides whether or not to prosecute.

The thing to remember is that in Canada, given we have orders of magnitude less handguns than in the US, police can afford to be a little more trusting than in the US.

Here's the RCMP Use of Force policy if you're curious.  Ultimately though it always comes down to what the officer was perceiving at the moment in question.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ccaps-spcca/cew-ai/imim-migi-eng.htm

This makes no sense, in an incident exactly like this one, either in the US or in Canada there are precisely the same number of handguns in the hands of the suspect, one. Yet you say the police will behave differently in the same circumstance.

You seem to be justify the response in America as some self-fulfilling prophecy;, because there are so many guns, you have to assume the very worst in everyone, including children and get the drop on them come what may.

It's almost a return to the Wild West 'legendary' times.

You can't shut a neighbourhood down over a handgun complaint when you get fifty handgun complaints every day.

[crazy canuck]

Presumably, in a sane society, they would do something about the number of handguns then.

Ok there, gun nuts, go wild.

[Neil]

But you know full well that they can't.  They're so afraid, there are so many handguns and their political and legal systems are so corrupt that all they can do is react to the situation as it exists.

[Sheilbh]

A tragic situation all around with faults on both sides.

Sure. But I take faults more seriously from trained adults whose role is to serve the community, than a 12 year old kid. It seems pretty clear who should maybe take extra care in that situation not to make faults.

Edit: Incidentally I agree with the Canadians and Raz on the urban-rural thing.

Is there more that police can do with the community, especially African Americans, so that they're less twitchy (especially when there's a racial difference) and African Americans have less reason to fear being gunned down? Or has that been explored and failed?