The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[DGuller]

BB - and other Canadian lawyers - out of curiosity how do you think a similar incident would play out in Canada?

Are the cops protocols of engagement (or whatever they're called) such that they're likely to approach the kid in a similar manner? If they ended up shooting the kid dead in a similar fashion, what are the likely repercussions in you estimation?

It is very hard to imagine this ever happening here.  It is much more likely the police would react in the way I described when a man had a gun on the steps of the art gallery (ie cordon on the area and talk with the suspect.)

You have to keep in mind that the likelihood of someone in Canada having a real gun is much lower, so the risk calculus changes.

[Jacob]

It started with the kid brandishing the toy gun convincingly enough to cause someone to call 911.  Even at 12 he had at least have it in the back of his mind that police might not like that behavior.  Once he did a good job convincing a bystander that he may have a real gun, he made himself a much more likely target of a deadly misunderstanding.

It's a toy gun.

I played with many toy guns in my childhood, and not once did I consider what the police might have thought of it.

So no.

[Tonitrus]

I don't think it's a "kowtowing to the white man" thing.  I think it is more symptomatic of the "us vs. them" culture and mentality that has grown in the U.S. between police and "civilians" (aren't police really also civilians?).  Something that is amplified even more in "bad", crime-ridden neighborhoods. 

I don't believe police roll up on a situation like that thinking "yahoo, we get to potentially subjugate or kill a black/poor kid today", but more of a "crap, am I going to get shot at/killed, or deal with some other really crappy, life-threatening situation today".  Usually involving a demographic that they do not relate to in any way (as most inner city cops probably live/commute from the 'burbs).

[crazy canuck]

I just watched the video.  It's still isn't clear at all what exactly happened.  However, one thing seems to be clear is that the boy had more than a second to react.  If a cop car is driving right towards you with sirens and lights blazing, and is driving onto the grass, you know they're probably looking for you and looking at you.  What happened next may have been a tragic misunderstanding, but the whole chain of events didn't start with the cops.

It didn't start with the cops driving across the grass of the playground, sirens blazing, straight at the kid? Isn't that what you just said happened?

It started with the kid brandishing the toy gun convincingly enough to cause someone to call 911.  Even at 12 he had at least have it in the back of his mind that police might not like that behavior.  Once he did a good job convincing a bystander that he may have a real gun, he made himself a much more likely target of a deadly misunderstanding.

WTF are you talking about.  He didnt do any convincing of a bystander.

[Jacob]

You seem to be saying that since the kid wound up dead the police necessarily did something wrong.

The world doesn't always work that way.  Sometimes shitty things happen even when everyone is trying to do the right thing.  I don't know if that's the case here or not, but sometimes that's how it is.

I totally accept that the police could have been behaving faultlessly. But I think the default starting point with a dead 12 year old is that someone on the police side seriously fucked up, and only a full inquiry or court case or similar process could establish the contrary.

[crazy canuck]

I don't think it's a "kowtowing to the white man" thing.  I think it is more symptomatic of the "us vs. them" culture and mentality that has grown in the U.S. between police and "civilians" (aren't police really also civilians?).  Something that is amplified even more in "bad", crime-ridden neighborhoods. 

In what way are police civilians?

[DGuller]

He didn't fool the bystander - the bystander was of the opinion the gun was a replica. (This info was allegedly not passed on to the cops)

If he were sure enough about that, he wouldn't bother calling 911, one would reasonably assume.  But we don't need to assume, because we know from what he said that he wasn't sure it was a replica.  Your paraphrasing is a little disingenuous.

Evidently, random gazebo-sitting dudes are more to be trusted on this point than trained cops ...

They had more time to observe, and neither the means or the duty to do anything about the boy either way.  I'm sure the cops would've preferred to have 15 seconds to evaluate the situation themselves, but whatever they saw made them conclude that they had to act immediately.  Obviously it was a mistake in hindsight, but the whole discussion is whether it was a justifiable mistake or a reckless one.

[Jacob]

You have to keep in mind that the likelihood of someone in Canada having a real gun is much lower, so the risk calculus changes.

Yup. That's probably a big reason for the different attitudes, though there seems to me to be a larger trend perceived risks justifying stronger action in the US generally.

[Tonitrus]

I don't think it's a "kowtowing to the white man" thing.  I think it is more symptomatic of the "us vs. them" culture and mentality that has grown in the U.S. between police and "civilians" (aren't police really also civilians?).  Something that is amplified even more in "bad", crime-ridden neighborhoods. 

In what way are police civilians?

In the same way every one of us is.  We're supposed to have done away with class distinctions by now, dammit.

[Barrister]

You seem to be saying that since the kid wound up dead the police necessarily did something wrong.

The world doesn't always work that way.  Sometimes shitty things happen even when everyone is trying to do the right thing.  I don't know if that's the case here or not, but sometimes that's how it is.

I totally accept that the police could have been behaving faultlessly. But I think the default starting point with a dead 12 year old is that someone on the police side seriously fucked up, and only a full inquiry or court case or similar process could establish the contrary.

In my experience starting with any kind of "default starting point" means you're well down the road to tunnel vision.

Take your facts as you find them and draw conclusions as appropriate.

[Jacob]

I don't think it's a "kowtowing to the white man" thing.  I think it is more symptomatic of the "us vs. them" culture and mentality that has grown in the U.S. between police and "civilians" (aren't police really also civilians?).  Something that is amplified even more in "bad", crime-ridden neighborhoods. 

I don't believe police roll up on a situation like that thinking "yahoo, we get to potentially subjugate or kill a black/poor kid today", but more of a "crap, am I going to get shot at/killed, or deal with some other really crappy, life-threatening situation today".  Usually involving a demographic that they do not relate to in any way (as most inner city cops probably live/commute from the 'burbs).

I didn't mean to imply that the police deliberately set out to do bad things.

However, in the US there exists a large body of lore regarding how to behave around police officers so you don't get in trouble needlessly. It seems to me that that body of lore is considered pertinent in general, but even more so for Black men.

[Barrister]

I don't think it's a "kowtowing to the white man" thing.  I think it is more symptomatic of the "us vs. them" culture and mentality that has grown in the U.S. between police and "civilians" (aren't police really also civilians?).  Something that is amplified even more in "bad", crime-ridden neighborhoods. 

In what way are police civilians?

Technically, civilians means "non-military".  So that would include law enforcement.

Practically though, I can tell you I routinely refer to "civilian witnesses" to differentiate them from police witnesses.

[Malthus]

You seem to be saying that since the kid wound up dead the police necessarily did something wrong.

The world doesn't always work that way.  Sometimes shitty things happen even when everyone is trying to do the right thing.  I don't know if that's the case here or not, but sometimes that's how it is.

I totally accept that the police could have been behaving faultlessly. But I think the default starting point with a dead 12 year old is that someone on the police side seriously fucked up, and only a full inquiry or court case or similar process could establish the contrary.

Even assuming the police version of events is 100% accurate, there was still a screw-up - the actual information from the caller was, according to the polices' own version of events, not passed on to the cops on the scene, leaving out two vital facts:

1. That the gun was possibly or probably a fake; and

2. That the perp was a "juvenile".

[Jacob]

I don't think it's a "kowtowing to the white man" thing.  I think it is more symptomatic of the "us vs. them" culture and mentality that has grown in the U.S. between police and "civilians" (aren't police really also civilians?).  Something that is amplified even more in "bad", crime-ridden neighborhoods. 

In what way are police civilians?

In that they are not in the Armed Forces. Different uses of the vocabulary, dependent on PoV.

[Tonitrus]

I don't think it's a "kowtowing to the white man" thing.  I think it is more symptomatic of the "us vs. them" culture and mentality that has grown in the U.S. between police and "civilians" (aren't police really also civilians?).  Something that is amplified even more in "bad", crime-ridden neighborhoods. 

In what way are police civilians?

Technically, civilians means "non-military".  So that would include law enforcement.

Practically though, I can tell you I routinely refer to "civilian witnesses" to differentiate them from police witnesses.

My thinking comes from an old cop show I remember watching, where an officer (about to be fired) laments at becoming a "regular citizen" again.  I think this is part of the "us v. them" mentality between the police and everyone else that is poisonous and part of the overall problem.  The police are one of us.  Just like even lawyers are one of us.