The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[Berkut]

I was looking at this more in contrast to the guy shot in St. Louis because he had a knife and walked towards police officers who had no ability to handle the situation due to their fear of walking backwards.

[derspiess]

I was looking at this more in contrast to the guy shot in St. Louis because he had a knife and walked towards police officers who had no ability to handle the situation due to their fear of walking backwards.

Okay, that's fair then.  But knife guy was brandishing the knife and crazy old coot was not brandishing his rifle as far as I could tell.

That said, I'm surprised crazy old coot didn't get charged with something and even got his rifle back the next day.

[Berkut]

I was looking at this more in contrast to the guy shot in St. Louis because he had a knife and walked towards police officers who had no ability to handle the situation due to their fear of walking backwards.

Okay, that's fair then.  But knife guy was brandishing the knife and crazy old coot was not brandishing his rifle as far as I could tell.

That said, I'm surprised crazy old coot didn't get charged with something and even got his rifle back the next day.

Knife guy had the knife down at his side the entire time, he certainly was not brandishing it.

If you are going to argue that you have to shoot the guy with the knife because he *might* attack with it, then the guy with the gun is clearly a much larger threat, since he can go from "not brandishing" to "killed me" in much less time.

Is there no open carry law for knives?

[CountDeMoney]

lol, walking down the street with an assault rifle isn't "brandishing".  Funny.

[Syt]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/07/ohio-black-man-killed-by-police-walmart-doubts-cast-witnesss-account

[...]

The couple separated inside the store. Crawford began a conversation on his mobile phone with LeeCee Johnson, the mother of his two sons. Walking in the sporting goods section, he approached a shelf and picked up a MK-177 BB/pellet air rifle, which was already unboxed.

"He never put the phone down," said his father. "He just kind of picked the rifle up and carried it, was walking around with it."

From this point, the Crawford team's description of what is shown in the surveillance footage differs radically from Ritchie's recollection, which he insisted was also backed up by the recordings from the Walmart cameras.

Crawford's father and attorneys said that the footage showed the 22-year-old walking from one aisle to the next with the BB rifle at his side and in his left hand, pointed at the floor except for one notable movement.

"I would think that the rifle maybe got heavy to him," said his father. "He kind of swung it like you carry it on your shoulder, then he immediately put it back down."

"You can clearly see people walk past him, and they didn't think anything about it. Everybody was just kind of minding their own business," his father added. "He wasn't acting in any type of way that he would have been considered menacing, if you will."

Ritchie, however, says Crawford was "waving the weapon around", causing the muzzle to move in the direction of passersby, including him and his wife, April. "And even still, it's a gun in Walmart, in a public place, inducing panic," said Ritchie.

The Crawford family's attorneys contend that Ohio's "open-carry" law means that he could have been legally holding the rifle in the store even if it had been a full-powered firearm. "We never saw him waving this rifle in front of kids or people," said his father.

Crawford arrived at the pet products section in the next aisle, estimated at 60 yards from where he had picked up the item. Then, his family and their attorneys say, at about 8.20pm, he stopped and stood still for about six minutes. "With the rifle pointed down and the cell phone up in his right hand," said his father, he stayed there facing a shelf, apparently preoccupied by the call.

"He didn't move," said his father. "He was stood so still, in fact, we thought the track had actually stopped. I asked the technician 'what's going on?' and he said 'Well, the reel is still running Mr Crawford, look at the time'."

Ritchie, on the other hand, stated that at this stage, Crawford was "pointing [the BB rifle] at things, like moving things around the shelf with the gun."

At about 8.26pm, armed police officers responding to Ritchie's 911 call five minutes earlier come into view on the footage, according to those who viewed it. Within seconds, Crawford was shot twice and pounced on. He was taken to hospital but died from his wounds. The Crawfords' attorneys say only Ritchie called 911 before the shooting.

Police and Ritchie say an officer to Crawford's left twice shouted "put it down". "Responding officers confronted the suspect inside the store area and the subject was shot after failing to comply with officers' verbal commands," a Beavercreek police spokesman said in a statement.

Ritchie says Crawford turned towards the officer after hearing the instruction, and then moved to run to his right, causing the BB rifle's muzzle to swing in the officer's direction moments before the officer fired.

"Then he got back up and tried to either go for the rifle or go for one of the officers," Ritchie said of Crawford. "But the officer had him on the ground before he got to either target."

Yet the Crawford team dismiss almost all of this. By the time the officer advanced from his left, according to Wright, Crawford was "turned 30 degrees to the right," standing "almost in a catty-corner position, facing in an opposite direction to the direction they were coming".

He did not seem to hear the police orders, said Wright. "Based on the video that we saw, it did not even appear that he knew they were there," he said. "He doesn't look at the officers, he doesn't turn his body towards the officers. It's as if he was just shot on sight by the officers."

Johnson, the mother of Crawford's children, who remained on the phone line to him throughout, has told reporters that she heard him say "It's not real", adding: "they said 'get on the ground,' but he was already on the ground because they had shot him". Wright said they were trying to reconcile this with the footage.

Crawford's father and Wright insist that the footage also did not show the 22-year-old trying to flee, nor trying to get back up to reach the weapon, which, they stress, he would have known was an unloaded BB rifle with no potential use. His only movement, they said, was a few steps to the right and to the ground upon being shot.

The Crawfords' attorneys said they had been informed by Dr Robert Shott, deputy coroner of Montgomery County, that the 22-year-old was "shot in the back of the left arm, above the elbow, and on the left side of his torso, to the left of his belly button". Shott did not respond to a message requesting comment. Ritchie, however, said the first shot entered Crawford's arm from the front after he turned to the officer.

Within a few minutes, fellow shopper Angela Williams, a 37-year-old nursing home worker reported to have suffered from a heart condition, was in cardiac arrest after collapsing trying to flee the melee. She died later that evening in hospital.

Crawford's attorneys said Williams and two of her young children had been in the same aisle as Crawford in the moments before the shooting. "She was completely indifferent as to him being there," said Wright. "She wasn't startled, she wasn't alarmed or anything like that."

Ritchie said that it was his own heart condition that saw him discharged from the US marines after joining in September 2008. He insisted that he had disclosed the condition when signing up. However, he claimed, "my recruiter never turned that paperwork in, so they considered me a fraudulent enlistment" when officers later discovered the condition.

[...]

[CountDeMoney]

But see, Syt, 2nd Amendment open carry rights are not conveyed to a BB rifle.

Within a few minutes, fellow shopper Angela Williams, a 37-year-old nursing home worker reported to have suffered from a heart condition, was in cardiac arrest after collapsing trying to flee the melee. She died later that evening in hospital.

Nice.  Two wrongful death suits.  Way to go, Officer Friendly.

[Berkut]

I like the claim that he was "trying to go for the weapon" after they shot him.

It makes such good sense to make such a claim when you are the shooting officer trying to justify your shooting...but sounds pretty ridiculous once you find out it was a unloaded BB gun.

I've been shot! Must...reach....bb...gun....

[Syt]

I especially like that this Ritchie guy who called the police went on record saying "I was a Marine" and it then turned out they kicked him out after a few weeks because of "fraudulent application."

I'm sure the Corps appreciates people going around making boasts if they barely made it through basic.

[derspiess]

Knife guy had the knife down at his side the entire time, he certainly was not brandishing it.

He didn't have the knife raised, but he was still brandishing it.  It was certainly reported as brandishing in the news stories I read.

If you are going to argue that you have to shoot the guy with the knife because he *might* attack with it, then the guy with the gun is clearly a much larger threat, since he can go from "not brandishing" to "killed me" in much less time.

Is there no open carry law for knives?

Knife guy was acting very aggressive, walking directly towards the police.  You do realize a knife wielder can stab someone with an upward motion, don't you?  Crazy old coot had his rifle pointing upwards at all times and never did anything to threaten the cop.

[derspiess]

I especially like that this Ritchie guy who called the police went on record saying "I was a Marine" and it then turned out they kicked him out after a few weeks because of "fraudulent application."

Is this the same guy who said Crawford was randomly aiming the rifle at kids and other people in the store?  If his claims were exaggerated, he bears a lot of responsibility for Crawford being shot. 

At the same time, I don't understand how Crawford could have been so absorbed in his phone conversation that he didn't notice the cops there.  One thing cops always seem to do well is make their presence known.

[Syt]

I especially like that this Ritchie guy who called the police went on record saying "I was a Marine" and it then turned out they kicked him out after a few weeks because of "fraudulent application."

Is this the same guy who said Crawford was randomly aiming the rifle at kids and other people in the store?  If his claims were exaggerated, he bears a lot of responsibility for Crawford being shot. 

Yeah, he's the one who called the cops. He had to backpedal already about his claims that he aimed at customers.

[Berkut]

Knife guy had the knife down at his side the entire time, he certainly was not brandishing it.

He didn't have the knife raised, but he was still brandishing it.  It was certainly reported as brandishing in the news stories I read.

Watch the video.

How do you "brandish" a knife without raising it?

If you are going to argue that you have to shoot the guy with the knife because he *might* attack with it, then the guy with the gun is clearly a much larger threat, since he can go from "not brandishing" to "killed me" in much less time.

Is there no open carry law for knives?

Knife guy was acting very aggressive, walking directly towards the police.

That is not acting "very aggressive" that is walking towards someone. He didn't run at them, he never go close enough to actually attack them. He was never even remotely near a point where he could have injured or killed them as quickly as someone with an rifle could from whatever range rifle guy was at from the police and bystanders.

  You do realize a knife wielder can stab someone with an upward motion, don't you?

Only if they are within arms reach.

You do realize that someone with a gun can shoot someone simply by dropping the rifle and pulling the trigger, right?

Crazy old coot had his rifle pointing upwards at all times and never did anything to threaten the cop.

Which was a good reason for them not to go all "Hey, he has a gun, he is acting kind of weird, why, I think this means I get to shoot him!"

[Razgovory]

Actually raising the knife is an ineffective way to use it as weapon.  You want to stab at the gut, not come down on the skull or rib cage.  You hold a knife low and stab under the rib at an angle to try to hit the heart.  Or at least that's what they said in my psycho murderer class I took.

[garbon]

Posting this from buzzfeed as every other source starts with claim that police thought she was a prostitute which looks like might just be angry claim from her husband (whom buzzfeed calls her partner?).

My take on any of these stories of black people be detained or arrested is that I will always produce ID even if it isn't required by law. Of course, that means I'll have to remember to always have ID on me.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimdalrympleii/the-lapd-handcuffed-and-detain-a-django-unchained-actress#39jqgut

The LAPD Allegedly Handcuffed And Detained A "Django Unchained" Actress

Daniele Watts was handcuffed and put in the back of a squad car after she and her partner Brian Lucas were caught kissing in a car Thursday. The interracial couple said police kept asking if they actually knew each other.

Watts — best known for her role in the Quentin Tarantino's Django Unchained — told BuzzFeed News the incident happened Sept. 11. She had just dropped off a friend at a diversity showcase when she met up with Lucas, who was in a parked car near CBS's Studio City production facility. Then the couple started kissing.

"I sat on his lap in the front seat of the car and we start making out," Watts said.

Soon thereafter, a man from a nearby office came out and asked Watts and Lucas to "stop putting on a show." Watts stressed to BuzzFeed News that she and Lucas were fully clothed and only kissing, but said they stopped anyway. She got out of the car and eventually called her dad to ask about family.

Police soon arrived and said they had received a call about lewdness.

As the police arrived, Watts was standing on the sidewalk and still on the phone while Lucas was nearby. When the police asked for the couple's ID's, Lucas complied but Watts that she wasn't required to hand her ID over. She told BuzzFeed News she then announced that she was walking away. The police said nothing, she recalled, so she left and walked about a block and a half down the street.

"I didn't have the stomach for someone on a power trip when I knew I hadn't done anything wrong," she explained.

Lucas told BuzzFeed News that as Watts walked away one of the officers "said something like, 'I wouldn't leave if I was her.'" However, Lucas also said that no one told Watts not to walk away.

Moments later, a second police car arrived and the officers took Watts into custody.

"So then I'm still talking to my dad," Watts said, "and a squad car pulls up and shouts at me, 'put your hands on the wall." Watts complied, and the police handcuffed her, loaded her in the back of the car and drove her back to the initial scene. Watts said she suffers from panic attacks from past trauma, and she started hyperventilating.

While police were handcuffing Watts, they were also asking Lucas what kind of relationship the couple had.

According to Lucas, the police kept asking, "do you really know her?" He described their questions as being filled with "innuendo." When asked what that meant, he said the questions seemed to imply that Watts was a prostitute and he was a client. Lucas said the police never explicitly said that was what they thought, but that was how he felt.

Watts and Lucas were eventually released at the scene, but not before the handcuffs cut Watts' wrist.

Back at the original scene, police had Watts sit on the sidewalk in handcuffs. "It was humiliating," she said. "It was absolutely humiliating."

Lucas eventually turned over Watts' ID, and when police learned her actual identity they released them both, she said. By the time she was free, however, Watts' wrist had been cut by the handcuffs.

The Los Angeles Police Department does not have a record of the incident.

Saturday, BuzzFeed News spoke with the Los Angeles Police Department, which patrols the Studio City neighborhood where the incident happened. When given the address and approximate time of the incident, police were unable to find any records of it. A spokesperson said that records are produced for arrests, so it wasn't out of the ordinary that an incident involving only an on-scene detention would lack documentation. However, without documents, the LAPD could not comment on the incident.

Lucas later provided BuzzFeed News with the names of the officers, but the LAPD could not be reached for comment late Friday night.

Now Watts and Lucas are left wondering why they were stopped in the first place.

Watts, who is black, and Lucas, who is white, both said that race was playing on their minds during the incident. Still, Watts said she didn't want it to boil down to that.

"It wasn't a black white thing, it was more about something like a hypocrisy," she said. "And I think these kinds of discussions can help us."

[11B4V]

I know Seedy knows what the 21' rule is. However you still need to link that the suspect has Opportunity, Capability, and Intent to employ deadly force. Just because the chap has a knife doesnt mean you automatically shoot him.

Might help explain more of the mind set.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2007/10/rethinking-the-21-foot-rule.aspx