The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[Admiral Yi]

There's absolutely no need for the Democrats to carefully evaluate each case and react accordingly. I think (and the polls seem to agree) that this is an issue they can hammer the GOP on.

It's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy past time Democrats get to fighting dirty.

What a truly bizarre post.  Like the thoughts of an alien species.

What does fighting dirty entail when it comes to prosecuting cops who kill?  Convicting some innocent ones too just pour encourager les autres?  Drawing and quartering the guilty ones?

Since Jake and I see to be on more or less the same page when it comes to the relationship between the poll and future action, maybe you should take up that issue with him.

[Zoupa]

I've seen Dems talking up the Ma'Khia Bryant shooting in the same vein as how they were talking up the George Floyd case, even though the context is vastly different.

That's what I'm talking about. Making people pissed off enough and disgusted enough that maybe they'll vote (D) next time, or vote for that "radical" dem in a primary and then eventually seeing some changes.

I'm not talking about prosecution of cops. They almost always get off because your system is fucked, so change the system. Dems need to learn how to win and for that they need to start fighting dirty.

[Admiral Yi]

So fighting dirty means trying to get more votes, with the implication that they haven't been trying to get more votes up till now?

That doesn't make a single bit of sense.

[jimmy olsen]

So fighting dirty means trying to get more votes, with the implication that they haven't been trying to get more votes up till now?

That doesn't make a single bit of sense.

He means go on the offensive with regards to cultural issues in order to whip up public support and votes.

Have ad campaigns and non-profits orgs pushing their agenda and have their voices in the media hammer it and have their state legislators always passing laws on it.

For one example of how the right does this, is via the issue of gun rights and the NRA. It doesn't matter that the public is about 80% in favor of tighter gun control. The NRA and conservatives in the media are always on the attack. Their state legislators are always pushing bills to loosen the rules.

Nothing the left does on that issue compares, even though they have vastly more public support. For the last forty years they've mostly run scared on this and almost every other issue.

Calling it "playing dirty" is wrong in my opinion. The democrats for the most part have not even played the game.

[Berkut]

I think what is being demanded here is that the left play by the same rules as the right, which means being perfectly ok just straight up fucking lying about what is happening in order to scare people into voting their way.

So that would mean doing things like taking specific examples of police incompetence or even police brutality, and convincing people that this is actually the norm, and all police are like that, and if you don't vote our way, right now, you will probably be murdered by a cop at any moment.

Just like the right tells their base that if they don't vote GOP, why, Obama is going to knock on their door and take their guns and caravans of raping brown illegals are going to overrun the country.

We already have the left pushing their agenda. They can certainly do that better.

But the *reason* I am a progressive instead of a conservative is that I think the right has abandoned any pretense of arguing or governing in good faith. I think the crafters of the right message, the media faces that create their narrative and the politicians that then get elected and reinforce it and push it themselves, have abandoned any even token attempt to link that narrative to what THEY actually know is the truth. They simply do not care if they know that Obama was not born in Kenya, and they do not care if they know perfectly well that the election was not "stolen".

If the left is going to operate in that same way, then there really isn't any reason to support them at all. We are going to end up with shitty outcomes and policies based on lies and bullshit anyway.

[DGuller]

Ignoring the morality of playing dirty aside, the right and left are just fundamentally different in some respects.  What works for the right will not necessarily work for the left.  The right and the left have different emotions to which you can effectively appeal in order to bypass critical thinking.  I also question the assumption that not playing dirty is necessarily a disadvantage; not every war is won by the side most willing to engage in atrocities.

[Razgovory]

I am not suggesting anyone lie, what I'm suggesting is that we treat all shootings as illegitimated until we get some movement on the issue.

[Berkut]

I am not suggesting anyone lie, what I'm suggesting is that we treat all shootings as illegitimated until we get some movement on the issue.

I would suggest that treating all shootings as criminal would be quite a bit of movement on the issue.

[The Minsky Moment]

This discussion is a useful illustration of why the United States is failing.  We have a problem that is going to take a lot of effort, focus and resources to solve.  Yet there is almost no interest in doing so.  Instead, one "side" wants to deny the problems exists and the other wants to use it as a cudgel to beat the other side with.  No matter that it means the problem continues and more people die.  The dead to come will just have to be unwilling martyrs to the higher cause of sticking it to the Trumpies.

[garbon]

This discussion is a useful illustration of why the United States is failing.  We have a problem that is going to take a lot of effort, focus and resources to solve.  Yet there is almost no interest in doing so.  Instead, one "side" wants to deny the problems exists and the other wants to use it as a cudgel to beat the other side with.  No matter that it means the problem continues and more people die.  The dead to come will just have to be unwilling martyrs to the higher cause of sticking it to the Trumpies.

Dems only want to use police brutality as a cudgel?

[Jacob]

This discussion is a useful illustration of why the United States is failing.  We have a problem that is going to take a lot of effort, focus and resources to solve.  Yet there is almost no interest in doing so.  Instead, one "side" wants to deny the problems exists and the other wants to use it as a cudgel to beat the other side with.  No matter that it means the problem continues and more people die.  The dead to come will just have to be unwilling martyrs to the higher cause of sticking it to the Trumpies.

I'm not sure where you are getting that from?

I mean, I did state my opinion that this could be a useful political issue to push for the dems, and Zoupa kind of leaned into it. Neither of us are setting dem policy or voting for the party, not being American. A few American languishites did comment, but I didn't see any of that as indicating that they (much less dems as a whole) are looking "to use it at a cudgel".

Presumably you're seeing this desire to use it as a cudgel (without caring about the victims) elsewhere?

I'm also curious what makes you conclude that not using the issue as a cudgel (if indeed that's happening) is going to be a more effective way to resolve the underlying issues?

[Admiral Yi]

He means go on the offensive with regards to cultural issues in order to whip up public support and votes.

Have ad campaigns and non-profits orgs pushing their agenda and have their voices in the media hammer it and have their state legislators always passing laws on it.

For one example of how the right does this, is via the issue of gun rights and the NRA. It doesn't matter that the public is about 80% in favor of tighter gun control. The NRA and conservatives in the media are always on the attack. Their state legislators are always pushing bills to loosen the rules.

Nothing the left does on that issue compares, even though they have vastly more public support. For the last forty years they've mostly run scared on this and almost every other issue.

Calling it "playing dirty" is wrong in my opinion. The democrats for the most part have not even played the game.

I still don't know what you think Zoupa wants when he says fight dirty.  "Go on the offensive," "push," and "hammer" are just changing one set of euphemisms for another set.

[Zoupa]

You're being kind of obtuse dude. We just mean politicking.

Can you recall or describe to me when, in the last say 35 years, Democrats hammered and hammered that issue? I'm looking for an instance that actually convinced people to vote D on it, or even that fired up their base. Think WMD in Iraq, Benghazi, her emails, the election was stolen kind of level of communication from the Dems side on the issue of gun control.

[Admiral Yi]

You're being kind of obtuse dude. We just mean politicking.

Can you recall or describe to me when, in the last say 35 years, Democrats hammered and hammered that issue? I'm looking for an instance that actually convinced people to vote D on it, or even that fired up their base. Think WMD in Iraq, Benghazi, her emails, the election was stolen kind of level of communication from the Dems side on the issue of gun control.

You're being kind of vague dude.  Purposely or not, I don't know.

Are you talking about things like Julian Castro's tweets?  You want more red meat for the BLM crowd?

[DGuller]

I am not suggesting anyone lie, what I'm suggesting is that we treat all shootings as illegitimated until we get some movement on the issue.

I think it's going to be a lot harder to get some movement on the issue when you start off discrediting yourself.  You lose power to effect change when you fail to correlate your reaction to the circumstances of what you're reacting to.  When someone keeps harping on you no matter what you do or why you do it, you eventually start thinking that their issue is with your personally, and not with what you're doing.