The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[Oexmelin]

Does the object of a belief system have to be real for the belief system to have real impact?

I am not sure what you mean. Does race existed as a "thing" before people started believing in it? No. That's the issue. Very few things begin their existence as purely material objects. There never was a purely material concept of race - even when racists were trying their best to make it so. Was it always a purely dematerialized thing? No. Like most human concepts, it emerged from the mixing and mingling of ideas and material elements. It had to be buttressed by, and indexed to, skin color, for instance.

[garbon]

Does the object of a belief system have to be real for the belief system to have real impact?

I am not sure what you mean. Does race existed as a "thing" before people started believing in it? No. That's the issue. Very few things begin their existence as purely material objects. There never was a purely material concept of race - even when racists were trying their best to make it so. Was it always a purely dematerialized thing? No. Like most human concepts, it emerged from the mixing and mingling of ideas and material elements. It had to be buttressed by, and indexed to, skin color, for instance.

You and Sheilbh both seemed to suggest that something which isn't real can't have an impact. I'm not sure that the object being believed in must be real to have an impact.

A smaller example would be how many believed the Clinton's ran a pedo ring in the basement of a pizza parlor. The sex ring didn't exist but nevertheless the idea of it had an impact up to and including the person who went there to free the children.

[Sheilbh]

So therefore is a God real just because people believe in that God?

But obviously race is still very important, just because something doesn't actually exist physically does not mean it isn't important.

No. But whether something "exists" just doesn't seem relevant if it has a real impact.

[garbon]

So therefore is a God real just because people believe in that God?

But obviously race is still very important, just because something doesn't actually exist physically does not mean it isn't important.

No. But whether something "exists" just doesn't seem relevant if it has a real impact.

Okay but that isn't what you said.

How can something not be real if it shapes our societies? That's not just conceptual.

[Valmy]

So therefore is a God real just because people believe in that God?

But obviously race is still very important, just because something doesn't actually exist physically does not mean it isn't important.

No. But whether something "exists" just doesn't seem relevant if it has a real impact.

I think it does. After all the entire racist system is based on the belief that race exists either because God cursed somebody or because of quantifiable physical differences. Whether or not those beliefs are based on real things or bullshit is important.

[Tamas]

So therefore is a God real just because people believe in that God?

But obviously race is still very important, just because something doesn't actually exist physically does not mean it isn't important.

No. But whether something "exists" just doesn't seem relevant if it has a real impact.

What might be closer to Valmy's original impact: should we let it have an impact? Is having an impact because it is believed in although not real, should be reason enough to accept the impact?

[garbon]

From an essay hosted the American Council on Education website

https://www.equityinhighered.org/resources/ideas-and-insights/the-problematic-nature-of-racial-and-ethnic-categories-in-higher-education/

...we must not lose sight of the paradox that race is an ephemeral, elusive, imaginary construct. At the same time, race has real, profound, and lived consequences for students who are sorted across the different boxes. We are right to challenge the purpose and consequences of racial and ethnic categories, including their applicability to the students we serve.

[Sheilbh]

Okay but that isn't what you said.

How can something not be real if it shapes our societies? That's not just conceptual.

Okay I suppose I struggle to see how a social construct that has historical roots, and experience, and present day impact isn't real. I think social constructs generally are real, because we have created them and used them to shape our societies and how we function in the real world. That doesn't mean they're some universally real or like a molecule, say. But they are still real.

What might be closer to Valmy's original impact: should we let it have an impact? Is having an impact because it is believed in although not real, should be reason enough to accept the impact?

But again I agree but I don't think it's a point of personal choice, it's social. Just because something has an impact doesn't mean you have to personally support that. You need a theory of social change not personal revelation and action.

Edit: Thinking about the molecule - and I have ZERO science so this may be nonsense - I sort of thinkg I see social constructs and society as like the dark matter of our world. It's there and it has an impact and it shapes the course of things, but until recently (they've ruined this simile) it wasn't "there".

[Razgovory]

I see you skipped the obvious statement which is God isn't real and yet belief in god has shaped our society.

I thought that was the point I was making.

Whether you believe in God or not, whether race is real or not - we can't opt out of the world we're in. The world has been profoundly shaped by race, it is real because we have made it real.

So therefore is a God real just because people believe in that God?

But obviously race is still very important, just because something doesn't actually exist physically does not mean it isn't important.

Well, yeah.  Mental objects are real.  The question if a mental object is real outside the mind is a different question all together.

[The Brain]

I see you skipped the obvious statement which is God isn't real and yet belief in god has shaped our society.

I thought that was the point I was making.

Whether you believe in God or not, whether race is real or not - we can't opt out of the world we're in. The world has been profoundly shaped by race, it is real because we have made it real.

So therefore is a God real just because people believe in that God?

But obviously race is still very important, just because something doesn't actually exist physically does not mean it isn't important.

Well, yeah.  Mental objects are real.  The question if a mental object is real outside the mind is a different question all together.

What about mental people?

[The Brain]

Can beliefs have real impact upon the world?

Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.

My impression is that you operate with a meaning of the word race which is considerably different from mainstream usage. I hate bringing out a dictionary but since we appear to be talking about completely different things I did. The first I came across was this one:

a group, especially of people, with particular similar physical characteristics, who are considered as belonging to the same type, or the fact of belonging to such a group

From here: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/race

Do you actually think that groups like that don't exist? If so great, then I understand what you're saying at least.

I may be talking to myself but I do it at home all the time so I'm no more insane now than I was before.

If race doesn't exist then it will be hard to explain how racism works. If there are no races to distinguish between, how do you discriminate people based on them?

Just for clarity, the same source as above has, for "racist" (noun):

someone who believes that other races are not as good as their own and therefore treats them unfairly This is the first one on the page, I think it kind of sucks (why just their own?) so I scrolled down to the second definition:

a person who believes that some races are better than others, or who acts unfairly to someone because of his or her race More complete I think, in more ways than one.

Both fall a bit flat if there are no races. To me it is obvious that races and racists according to these definitions exist in the real world.

[Razgovory]

What about mental people?

Depends if they are homeless.  If they are homeless they exist physically but people are incapable of seeing them and thus don't exist in the minds of modern human beings.

[grumbler]

Then you misread.

It just seems strange to insist race doesn't exist, can't explain anything, and cannot leave evidence.

Race exists as a social construct.  It has no objective biological basis.  Racism (i.e. belief in race, with or without assumptions about racial superiority) exists as a belief in the real world, and it can certainly explain a great deal and leave a great deal of evidence.  Without racism, though, the concept of race would be trivial.  I mean, there is a construct called Odin, but without Odinism the construct doesn't mean anything.

Switch the argument to private property. Since private property doesn't exist naturally, it can't explain anything, and therefore, we cannot find evidence of it.

In the natural world, you will find it difficult to discern private versus public property, barring signs that tell you.  And even they could be wrong.

I know that people want to undermine the category of race by saying it carries no biological determinism. That's great. However, we have inherited a world that has very much, and for the last three centuries, made race an operative category. Which means it has structured states, laws, cultures, international relations, etc. My belief about what race is, or isn't, can certainly influence the political struggles around it, but it can't make it go away anymore than my beliefs about private property cannot make it go away and magically render it inoperative.

If you replace "race" with "racism" in that statement, I agree.  The existence or non-existence of of race is important only in the context of the belief in race.  It is like the construct of gods; the only significance such constructs have comes from peoples' belief in them.

[Razgovory]

So are the protests ending?  The protesters accomplished their immediate goal.

[Sheilbh]

In more on just the extraordinary police stuff in the US.

There was the Fort Lauderdale cop who did this:
https://twitter.com/BenjaminPDixon/status/1267291999805325312?s=20
In his three and a half years on the force he's been reviewed by internal affairs 79 times. I mean that seems high

Meanwhile two of the cops in the George Floyd situation had been on the job for four days and Chauvin was their training officer.