The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[The Brain]

Valmy, you are wasting your time. Racism is a belief, it isn't the considered conclusion from examining the evidence.  You cannot convince a person to change their deeply-held beliefs with evidence.

IIRC it was a race discussion many years ago that made me realize that you're The Compleat Moran. You really are clueless. I also like that you accuse me of racism. Nice touch.

[Oexmelin]

Can beliefs have real impact upon the world?

I would argue that they obviously have a real impact on the world, but I take it from your question that you do not.

Then you misread.

It just seems strange to insist race doesn't exist, can't explain anything, and cannot leave evidence.

Switch the argument to private property. Since private property doesn't exist naturally, it can't explain anything, and therefore, we cannot find evidence of it.

I know that people want to undermine the category of race by saying it carries no biological determinism. That's great. However, we have inherited a world that has very much, and for the last three centuries, made race an operative category. Which means it has structured states, laws, cultures, international relations, etc. My belief about what race is, or isn't, can certainly influence the political struggles around it, but it can't make it go away anymore than my beliefs about private property cannot make it go away and magically render it inoperative.

[The Larch]

Some Fox dupe, apparently.

Kilmeade: 'John Lennon Would Not Be Safe In New York City Right Now'

[The Brain]

Some Fox dupe, apparently.

Kilmeade: 'John Lennon Would Not Be Safe In New York City Right Now'

Isn't Chapman still locked up?

[Barrister]

Some Fox dupe, apparently.

Kilmeade: 'John Lennon Would Not Be Safe In New York City Right Now'

He's right.  John Lennon would have been 79 years old, and NYC is a Covid hotspot.

[Valmy]

Can beliefs have real impact upon the world?

Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.

[Sheilbh]

Can beliefs have real impact upon the world?

Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.

How can something not be real if it shapes our societies? That's not just conceptual.

It's like saying if you don't believe in God, religion isn't a real thing. How we live, how we organise societies, how and what we believe etc are all real things.

[Oexmelin]

Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.

I don't see how something that isn't real can have huge social implications. Are you using real as synonym for "material"?

It is as real as private property. Is it nice and cuddly? No. Does it work biologically like racists insist it does? No. Is it real? Yes. People die over it. Even if I don't want it to be.

[garbon]

Can beliefs have real impact upon the world?

Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.

How can something not be real if it shapes our societies? That's not just conceptual.

It's like saying if you don't believe in God, religion isn't a real thing. How we live, how we organise societies, how and what we believe etc are all real things.

I see you skipped the obvious statement which is God isn't real and yet belief in god has shaped our society.

[garbon]

Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.

I don't see how something that isn't real can have huge social implications. Are you using real as synonym for "material"?

It is as real as private property. Is it nice and cuddly? No. Does it work biologically like racists insist it does? No. Is it real? Yes. People die over it. Even if I don't want it to be.

Does the object of a belief system have to be real for the belief system to have real impact?

[Valmy]

Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.

I don't see how something that isn't real can have huge social implications. Are you using real as synonym for "material"?

It is as real as private property. Is it nice and cuddly? No. Does it work biologically like racists insist it does? No. Is it real? Yes. People die over it. Even if I don't want it to be.

I am using real as a synonym for something physically in existance. I may be the using the wrong word. But it wouldn't be surprising for a argument to hinge on semantics.

[Sheilbh]

I see you skipped the obvious statement which is God isn't real and yet belief in god has shaped our society.

I thought that was the point I was making.

Whether you believe in God or not, whether race is real or not - we can't opt out of the world we're in. The world has been profoundly shaped by race, it is real because we have made it real.

[Tamas]

Race is real because we choose to make it real.

[The Brain]

Can beliefs have real impact upon the world?

Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.

My impression is that you operate with a meaning of the word race which is considerably different from mainstream usage. I hate bringing out a dictionary but since we appear to be talking about completely different things I did. The first I came across was this one:

a group, especially of people, with particular similar physical characteristics, who are considered as belonging to the same type, or the fact of belonging to such a group

From here: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/race

Do you actually think that groups like that don't exist? If so great, then I understand what you're saying at least.

[Valmy]

I see you skipped the obvious statement which is God isn't real and yet belief in god has shaped our society.

I thought that was the point I was making.

Whether you believe in God or not, whether race is real or not - we can't opt out of the world we're in. The world has been profoundly shaped by race, it is real because we have made it real.

So therefore is a God real just because people believe in that God?

But obviously race is still very important, just because something doesn't actually exist physically does not mean it isn't important.