The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[Maximus]

My impression is that in many cases it's the unions, not the departments, that stand in the way of accountability and reform.

[Malthus]

My overall impression is that the system of policing in the US is so local that creating some uniform accountability is made very difficult. There should be a completely independent agency that consistently investigates fatal interactions with police, but that would be difficult to implement. Having the police investigate themselves creates an obvious conflict of interest.

We have an oversight system for such encounters in Ontario, but it suffers criticism for lacking teeth. What is necessary is an oversight agency that is both not corrupt and willing and able to lay blame where it is deserved, and recommend charges.

This is of course in addition to the problem of a judicial system that is heavily stacked in favour of the police, the fact that other cops will often lie to shield their own, etc.

There will always be problematic police encounters, and systemic racism is not easy to eradicate. What destroys public trust more than anything else is that nothing whatever appears to be done about them. These are problems in Canada as well as the US, but the Canadian cops have not gone down the route of militarization and there are at least some oversight mechanisms, even if these aren't yet strong enough; plus the major systemic racism problem in Canada is more rural than urban (the primary victims being native Canadians rather than Black Canadians, though of course Black Canadians face some as well).

[DGuller]

The way I see it, policing is a civil rights issue, police officers are empowered to take the lives of citizens under some circumstances.  The only way to truly protect the rights of the citizens is with federal oversight, both for investigation of misconduct as well as for minimum training requirements.  Police misconduct has to be a federal crime, just like a lot of other civil rights violations.  With it being a federal crime, there would hopefully be more uniformity and less room for conflict of interest.

[grumbler]

I think that one of the big problems is that US police forces are hiring so many ex-servicemen who've been involved in COIN operations and who thus view anyone outside of their "unit" as a potential enemy.  The "us against them" mentality has always existed in the police (like any similar organization), but it becomes worse when the "them" are assumed to be just waiting to attack "us," just like in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Since these guys are the vets who have "seen the elephant," their attitudes are seen as authoritative by the guys who have never seen combat.

Paranoia saves lives in Afghanistan, but it takes lives in Alabama.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah and crucially there's no police/civilian distinction like there is military/civilian. The police are civilians, that's kind of the point of police forces.

[Malthus]

I think that one of the big problems is that US police forces are hiring so many ex-servicemen who've been involved in COIN operations and who thus view anyone outside of their "unit" as a potential enemy.  The "us against them" mentality has always existed in the police (like any similar organization), but it becomes worse when the "them" are assumed to be just waiting to attack "us," just like in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Since these guys are the vets who have "seen the elephant," their attitudes are seen as authoritative by the guys who have never seen combat.

Paranoia saves lives in Afghanistan, but it takes lives in Alabama.

This is a good point. It isn't made better by the fact that the US cops are given so much military gear.

[Tonitrus]

I think that one of the big problems is that US police forces are hiring so many ex-servicemen who've been involved in COIN operations and who thus view anyone outside of their "unit" as a potential enemy.  The "us against them" mentality has always existed in the police (like any similar organization), but it becomes worse when the "them" are assumed to be just waiting to attack "us," just like in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Since these guys are the vets who have "seen the elephant," their attitudes are seen as authoritative by the guys who have never seen combat.

Paranoia saves lives in Afghanistan, but it takes lives in Alabama.

This is a good point. It isn't made better by the fact that the US cops are given so much military gear.

I tend to think that the latter follows the former.  The vets want the same toys they used to use, and the non-vets likely tend towards being the "tacti-cool" types that eat it up as well.

[grumbler]

I think that one of the big problems is that US police forces are hiring so many ex-servicemen who've been involved in COIN operations and who thus view anyone outside of their "unit" as a potential enemy.  The "us against them" mentality has always existed in the police (like any similar organization), but it becomes worse when the "them" are assumed to be just waiting to attack "us," just like in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Since these guys are the vets who have "seen the elephant," their attitudes are seen as authoritative by the guys who have never seen combat.

Paranoia saves lives in Afghanistan, but it takes lives in Alabama.

This is a good point. It isn't made better by the fact that the US cops are given so much military gear.

I tend to think that the latter follows the former.  The vets want the same toys they used to use, and the non-vets likely tend towards being the "tacti-cool" types that eat it up as well.

Yep.  That's a point I was going to make myself.  I think that the gear is following the guys, who are all "well, in Iraq we could deal with this because we had...."

[DGuller]

I think the gear is more the symptom than the cause, though it's a highly symbolic symptom.  The blue tribalism is the cause.

[Grey Fox]

But the Federal government is also making the gear available.

Is it the only source for Local departments?

[Tonitrus]

But the Federal government is also making the gear available.

Is it the only source for Local departments?

Some of the gear for sure...armored vehicles are the famous example.  The Feds have definitely not helped in discouraging the practice.

There are plenty of producers/vendors for mil-spec knock-offs in blue color (here I am thinking of stuff like the tactical helmets, body armor, and all the whiz-bang accessory holders, etc) that plenty of departments/officers would probably happily get on their own.

[Malthus]

Certainly the gear is symtomatic and not causal, and I agree it follows the guys. Point though is that it psychologically reinforces the militarization already in progress. On both sides of the police/public divide. They look more like an occupying army with all that gear.

[Tonitrus]

Yep.  But the counter argument would be that they would say they need it to protect themselves and save lives...a hard argument to counter.  Even if you can show their forebears in the 60's doing without most of it (except the helmet, baton, and maybe a shield).

[garbon]

Yep.  But the counter argument would be that they would say they need it to protect themselves and save lives...a hard argument to counter.  Even if you can show their forebears in the 60's doing without most of it (except the helmet, baton, and maybe a shield).

Well what evidence are they citing they need it?

Slight bit of an aside:

In New York, major crime complaints fell when cops took a break from 'proactive policing'

https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-proactive-policing-crime-20170925-story.html
https://newrepublic.com/article/154895/new-york-police-slowdown-backfiring

[Tonitrus]

Yep.  But the counter argument would be that they would say they need it to protect themselves and save lives...a hard argument to counter.  Even if you can show their forebears in the 60's doing without most of it (except the helmet, baton, and maybe a shield).

Well what evidence are they citing they need it?

I did not mean to suggest there was any.  The point was it is the type of argument that could be made without evidence and still seem plausible to many.