The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[Admiral Yi]

Uck's second link gave me the impression shields are used on knife wielders in You Kay only when the perp is barricaded in a building in they have time to call in the riot cops.  Is it practical to carry a shield around all the time?

[Jacob]

Uck's second link gave me the impression shields are used on knife wielders in You Kay only when the perp is barricaded in a building in they have time to call in the riot cops.  Is it practical to carry a shield around all the time?

Probably not... at least not without making that sort of resolution approach a priority and organizing and training for it.

[Oexmelin]

From what I have read elsewhere, the usual method (again, most policemen are unarmed, in the UK) when unexpectedly confronted with a knife-wielding man, when de-escalation does not work, is to disorient the perp with a multitude of verbal commands, keep him or her at bay, while those who are trained in the use of shields arrive. Then, there are instances when what police will face is either known, or suspected, and so they call these guys in immediately.

In those more recent cases where knife-wielding perps are terrorists bent on murder rather than disturbed individuals in the height of a crisis (the most frequent occurrence), they seemed to have been taken down with batons and tackling.

[Admiral Yi]

Probably not... at least not without making that sort of resolution approach a priority and organizing and training for it.

We must use the word practical differently.  I was talking about cost efficiency, and you're saying it would be OK if they spend more time and resources on it.

[The Brain]

In the armory in Vienna I saw a sweet item that combined shield, gauntlet, sword, attachable knuckle blades, and integrated lamp. Could probably work quite well for police use.

[Barrister]

Question for CDM:

If police are certain there is a gun in the car within reach of the suspect's hand, would they approach the car with their own guns drawn or would the approach with the guns holstered but with hand on the gun ready to draw?

There are never any hard and fast rules in police use of force, but if you think you might need to use a firearm you have it in your hand.  This isn't the Old West.  The question would be whether you have the firearm at low ready (pointed to the ground) or pointed directly at the suspect.

[Oexmelin]

We must use the word practical differently.  I was talking about cost efficiency, and you're saying it would be OK if they spend more time and resources on it.

Well, yes. It would be ok to spend more time and resources on it. How can "cost efficiency" be equal to "practical"? Especially in a matter in issues which result in the death of someone?

[Barrister]

From what I have read elsewhere, the usual method (again, most policemen are unarmed, in the UK) when unexpectedly confronted with a knife-wielding man, when de-escalation does not work, is to disorient the perp with a multitude of verbal commands, keep him or her at bay, while those who are trained in the use of shields arrive. Then, there are instances when what police will face is either known, or suspected, and so they call these guys in immediately.

In those more recent cases where knife-wielding perps are terrorists bent on murder rather than disturbed individuals in the height of a crisis (the most frequent occurrence), they seemed to have been taken down with batons and tackling.

If you have the time to wait until officers trained in the use of shields arrive, then you're probably not going to have a problem anyways - your suspect is not being actively aggressive.  You should be able to wait him out, talk him into dropping the knife.

People get shot not just because they have a knife, but because they're doing something potentially dangerous with the knife - like lunging at people.  In that situation you have to use the tools that you carry.

[Jacob]

We must use the word practical differently.  I was talking about cost efficiency, and you're saying it would be OK if they spend more time and resources on it.

Yeah, I was talking about operational efficiency.

[Jacob]

There are never any hard and fast rules in police use of force, but if you think you might need to use a firearm you have it in your hand.  This isn't the Old West.  The question would be whether you have the firearm at low ready (pointed to the ground) or pointed directly at the suspect.

That probably varies with jurisdiction.

[Jacob]

If you have the time to wait until officers trained in the use of shields arrive, then you're probably not going to have a problem anyways - your suspect is not being actively aggressive.  You should be able to wait him out, talk him into dropping the knife.

People get shot not just because they have a knife, but because they're doing something potentially dangerous with the knife - like lunging at people.  In that situation you have to use the tools that you carry.[/quote]

Conversely, it does seem that in some places where the police carry gusn they're inclined to use them to "solve the problem" with lethal shooting readily, even in cases where more observation and de-escalation would have saved lives.

[Oexmelin]

If you have the time to wait until officers trained in the use of shields arrive, then you're probably not going to have a problem anyways - your suspect is not being actively aggressive.  You should be able to wait him out, talk him into dropping the knife.

People get shot not just because they have a knife, but because they're doing something potentially dangerous with the knife - like lunging at people.  In that situation you have to use the tools that you carry.

While I agree with the first part, I disagree with the second. You *should* be able to wait him out, talk him into dropping the knife. However, it also seems very likely that 1) the threshold of what constitutes "dangerous" varies quite a bit, esp. in relation to what Cdm had said in the past about the culture of fear in police dept. and 2) that police themselves can contribute to escalating a situation to the point where perp becomes dangerous with a knife.

[Admiral Yi]

Well, yes. It would be ok to spend more time and resources on it. How can "cost efficiency" be equal to "practical"? Especially in a matter in issues which result in the death of someone?

Cost efficient relates to practical in the sense practical is concerned with real world constraints and noninfinite resources is a real world constraint.

[Jacob]

Cost efficient relates to practical in the sense practical is concerned with real world constraints and noninfinite resources is a real world constraint.

Nonetheless, cost efficiencies are not the only real world constraints even if it is your favoured lens for viewing things through.

[Barrister]

There are never any hard and fast rules in police use of force, but if you think you might need to use a firearm you have it in your hand.  This isn't the Old West.  The question would be whether you have the firearm at low ready (pointed to the ground) or pointed directly at the suspect.

That probably varies with jurisdiction.

Many things vary on jurisdiction, but I would think this is just common sense.

Police holsters are not designed for "quick draws". All the ones I've seen have a snap-on strap to make it more difficult to draw the weapon - largely to ensure that suspects don't try and grab the officer's gun.  So if you think you're going to need your firearm, it should be drawn.