Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-25

[Jacob]

Any particular reason you are so gung ho for everybody in the world to join their respective country's military?

Can't speak for anyone, but I usually see it used as an argument for appeasement. "You can't argue for  not rolling over if you are not personally willing to get in the trenches / go to Ukraine / whatever."

[Admiral Yi]

It is very bad for America and we will rue this day.

Because if the Europeans re-arm and build this big military industrial complex with a well funded and powerful professional army...well...they are eventually going to use to advance their interests. Interests that may not align with ours.

I am totally unconcerned about this.

[The Minsky Moment]

In 1933, the Oxford Union overwhelmingly passed the resolution "That this House will under no circumstances fight for its King and country"

That remained a dominant opinion until Munich; a few years after that the UK was fully mobilized and fighting a world war.

We will see to what extent Munich II changes opinions in Europe. 

[Grey Fox]

It is very bad for America and we will rue this day.

Because if the Europeans re-arm and build this big military industrial complex with a well funded and powerful professional army...well...they are eventually going to use to advance their interests. Interests that may not align with ours.

I am totally unconcerned about this.

Why? The post war world order made you rich. Why did it had to end now?

[mongers]

It is very bad for America and we will rue this day.

Because if the Europeans re-arm and build this big military industrial complex with a well funded and powerful professional army...well...they are eventually going to use to advance their interests. Interests that may not align with ours.

I am totally unconcerned about this.

Why? The post war world order made you rich. Why did it had to end now?

No, I think he's obliquely saying he's' unconcerned that there's a risk Europe could be a rival.

[Admiral Yi]

Why? The post war world order made you rich. Why did it had to end now?

You've been a very pleasant person to discuss with for a long time.  But when you say fuck the I didn't vote for Trump guys, I take it personally and don't feel like responding.

[Admiral Yi]

No, I think he's obliquely saying he's' unconcerned that there's a risk Europe could be a rival.

Nope.  I'm saying the probability of Europe declaring war on the US is essentially nil.  And that the probability of Europe declaring war on some country other than the US but still not in the US interest approaches zero.  Israel?

[Grey Fox]

It's kind of cheating for to you answer what I misunderstood in the next post.

But I understand. I am angry and will remain angry at the shield of this for the foreseeable future.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

No, I think he's obliquely saying he's' unconcerned that there's a risk Europe could be a rival.

Nope.  I'm saying the probability of Europe declaring war on the US is essentially nil.  And that the probability of Europe declaring war on some country other than the US but still not in the US interest approaches zero.  Israel?

no war declaration required to be a rival though. Just losing the diplomatic padding the European allies gave the US will have an effect.

[Admiral Yi]

no war declaration required to be a rival though. Just losing the diplomatic padding the European allies gave the US will have an effect.

I don't understand what this means.

[mongers]

No, I think he's obliquely saying he's' unconcerned that there's a risk Europe could be a rival.

Nope.  I'm saying the probability of Europe declaring war on the US is essentially nil.  And that the probability of Europe declaring war on some country other than the US but still not in the US interest approaches zero.  Israel?

Then why not say that in the first place, rather than being Delphic?

[Admiral Yi]

Then why not say that in the first place, rather than being Delphic?

I was being Delphic only to the extent that Valmy was being Delphic.  I thought his thesis was very clearly stated. 

[Sheilbh]

Can't speak for anyone, but I usually see it used as an argument for appeasement. "You can't argue for  not rolling over if you are not personally willing to get in the trenches / go to Ukraine / whatever."

For myself, I don't think it's that so much as again what we say needing to be matched by action and state capacity. I think some of this is cultural as well as just spending.

I'd add that I remember a poll over a decade ago on attitudes across Europe around responding to Article 5 call in Europe - and it did not make for pretty reading if you were living in the Baltics or Poland.

In 1933, the Oxford Union overwhelmingly passed the resolution "That this House will under no circumstances fight for its King and country"

Two notes on this that are slightly interesting. It prompted a set of similar debates and resolutions around the country which overwhelmingly followed Oxford's lead - and also a series of debates and resolutions in universities in Canada, Australia and New Zealand which went the other way.

Also was reading something recently and it struck me that there's something slightly Stanley Baldwin about Angela Merkel (or maybe the other way round)...

[Valmy]

It is very bad for America and we will rue this day.

Because if the Europeans re-arm and build this big military industrial complex with a well funded and powerful professional army...well...they are eventually going to use to advance their interests. Interests that may not align with ours.

I am totally unconcerned about this.

A heavily armed Europe has never been a problem before?

[Valmy]

No, I think he's obliquely saying he's' unconcerned that there's a risk Europe could be a rival.

Nope.  I'm saying the probability of Europe declaring war on the US is essentially nil.  And that the probability of Europe declaring war on some country other than the US but still not in the US interest approaches zero.  Israel?

It seems absurd today, but plenty of things that seemed absurd ended up happening.

I just think having a large military produces the will and pressure to use it and throw your weight around. Who knows where points of conflict might present themselves?