Another US school shooter - Portland, this time

[11B4V]

To put it bluntly, I am willing to trade the lives of citizens and even police officers for maintaining the free and open society that I think defines America. We seem perfectly happy, we even celebrate, the "price of freedom" when it means dead soldiers in Afghanistan, but that price must be paid by not just soldiers, but by everyone in our society.

As long as your willing to trade yours too.

[Berkut]

To put it bluntly, I am willing to trade the lives of citizens and even police officers for maintaining the free and open society that I think defines America. We seem perfectly happy, we even celebrate, the "price of freedom" when it means dead soldiers in Afghanistan, but that price must be paid by not just soldiers, but by everyone in our society.

As long as your willing to trade yours too.

Absolutely. I am perfectly willing to accept that there may be a situation where the police were not able to stop something that results in a crime affecting me because we make a conscious choice to NOT have our police be a para-military force.

For that matter, that is a choice that effects me all the time - I've been the victim of crimes in the past, crimes that may very well have been prevented had I been willing to live in some Orwellian police state where the police are allowed to do things we don't allow them to do now or ever.

[CountDeMoney]

So you're one of *them*

A community-based police officer? Not anymore, thankfully. Wouldn't want to take some rounds through the front door returning your lost dog to you.  MAH PRIVATE PROPPURTY

[MadImmortalMan]

I don't think that's why they all do it.  Most of them seem to be suicides where they want to take out a few people with them.  Thirty years ago, most of them would have just hung themselves or something.

I think people thirty years ago had more ability to recover their lives after reaching a point of desperation for some reason. Now, it's too easy to spoil your rep on social media or render yourself un-hireable with a silly mistake that back then would have been no big deal. Everything is magnified now, and that includes the desperation factor.

[crazy canuck]

I don't think that's why they all do it.  Most of them seem to be suicides where they want to take out a few people with them.  Thirty years ago, most of them would have just hung themselves or something.

I think people thirty years ago had more ability to recover their lives after reaching a point of desperation for some reason. Now, it's too easy to spoil your rep on social media or render yourself un-hireable with a silly mistake that back then would have been no big deal. Everything is magnified now, and that includes the desperation factor.

Thats a very good point.  While all the world is a stage (and always has been) today's stage performances are premenantly archived for critics to review at any time of their choosing.

[frunk]

I've long thought the worst result from 9/11 was not the event itself, but the ridiculous overreaction afterwards.  The standouts for me are the massive overreach by the federal government as far as online and phone information collection, the time wasting and mostly useless airport regulations, the massive amount of money spread around cities and states for "stopping terrorism" (of which the militarization of the police is part), increased secrecy for public utilities and government which is only going to lead to more corruption.  There were some reasonable changes that were probably a hundredth of the total amount spent (beefing up in aircraft security and training being the biggest) but other countries that didn't have this response aren't collapsing under a wave of terrorist attacks.  Perhaps we were a little too lax before 9/11, now we have the opposite problem.

[CountDeMoney]

5. The supposed miltarization  of local police forces is in response not so much to the threat of a terrorist attack (alquida bands running around), but what the general capability of the local populace is.

That is not factually true.  There is no way the local police departments would be spending money on this stuff as a matter of necessity or policy.  They are pretty much all but forced to do so as the unintended consequence of certain federal policies.

Don't buy into the hype. I've been in the room when the command staff's discussions regarding the procurement of overwrought and unnecessary equipment was based on 3 things:
1.  It's a grant, so that means it's free.
2.  Chief So-and-So has one, we need one too/Chief So-and-So doesnt have one? Ha!
3.  It's "neat."

The LEO decision-making process isn't very complicated.

[11B4V]

5. The supposed miltarization  of local police forces is in response not so much to the threat of a terrorist attack (alquida bands running around), but what the general capability of the local populace is.

That is not factually true.  There is no way the local police departments would be spending money on this stuff as a matter of necessity or policy.  They are pretty much all but forced to do so as the unintended consequence of certain federal policies.

Don't buy into the hype. I've been in the room when the command staff's discussions regarding the procurement of overwrought and unnecessary equipment was based on 3 things:
1.  It's a grant, so that means it's free.
2.  Chief So-and-So has one, we need one too/Chief So-and-So doesnt have one? Ha!
3.  It's "neat."

The LEO decision-making process isn't very complicated.

and I've seen the exact opposite.

[CountDeMoney]

That's because you're not busy enough.

[11B4V]

That's because you're not busy enough.

tell that to BPD. But hey, use Berkut as a human shield. He doesnt mind. 

[CountDeMoney]

Berkut's not a sworn police officer, so he has no reason to be shot by derspiess.

[Berkut]

I've long thought the worst result from 9/11 was not the event itself, but the ridiculous overreaction afterwards.  The standouts for me are the massive overreach by the federal government as far as online and phone information collection, the time wasting and mostly useless airport regulations, the massive amount of money spread around cities and states for "stopping terrorism" (of which the militarization of the police is part), increased secrecy for public utilities and government which is only going to lead to more corruption.  There were some reasonable changes that were probably a hundredth of the total amount spent (beefing up in aircraft security and training being the biggest) but other countries that didn't have this response aren't collapsing under a wave of terrorist attacks.  Perhaps we were a little too lax before 9/11, now we have the opposite problem.

What really sucks is that our reaction can be convincingly argued to be exactly what those who perpetrated the act would consider a victory for them.

If we really do believe that America is "special" in some fashion, then surely one of the key elements that makes us special is that which differentiates us from those who would commit such acts - our free, open, and transparent society founded on the basic premise of freedom of choice and a valuing of freedom over the control of the state. These stand in rather stark contrast to the values that those who form Al Quaeda value, which is strict conformity to an over-arching authority, and a totalitarian like moral and legal code that has no tolerance for, well, tolerance.

So our response to their act of terrorism was to show the world that yes, we are most certianly terrified, enough so that we are willing to abandon some of those very values that define us as different from those willing to do things like fly planes into buildings.

The best response we could have had to deter future acts would be to not change a god damned thing, at least not visibly.

[MadImmortalMan]

You mean we shouldn't be turning our schools into high-security prison-campuses?


If Tarkin would only tighten his grip a little more...   

[derspiess]

It's all bravado, until your either full of holes bleeding on the the floor or peeing yourself.

So would you just surrender if you had armed people break into your house & you weren't sure who they were?

[crazy canuck]

It's all bravado, until your either full of holes bleeding on the the floor or peeing yourself.

So would you just surrender if you had armed people break into your house & you weren't sure who they were?

And they were yelling "Police!".  Yep