The Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant Megathread

[Razgovory]

i checked your link. a few things.

first, it labels people as anti-semitic (i.e., hatred/prejudice against jews, etc.) for those who answer "probably true" to 6 of 11 questions. the questions range from "do you think jews are more loyal to israel than your country?" and "do you think jews have too much power in business?" this is an imperfect way to measure hostility toward israel's actions based off actual anti-semitism. for example, from what i've heard of japan, i wouldn't be surprised if a sizable percentage of japanese would be considered "anti-semitic" by this poll, even though japanese beliefs toward several of these questions does not translate into a hatred for jews, but respect for jews. obviously not every country is like this. however, it shows the flawed nature of attributing anti-semitism to people who answer "probably true" for those types of questions, and then arguing this poll's labeled "anti-semitic" people dislike israel because they are anti-semitic.

second, countries like UK, the philippines, etc. the scandinavian nations, have very low percentage of "anti-semitism" according to your link, but the majority in those countries have mainly negative opinions of israel. UK, for example - 8% "anti-semitic" by your poll, but 65% mainly negative opinion (and only 17% mainly positive) of israel. http://www.globescan.com/news_archives/bbccntryview/backgrounder.html

if you think the governments are "trying to lead their people [to dislike israel,]" then that's conspiratorial.

yes, using human shields and then photographing the consequences is PR-style manipulation. but, your initial argument was "many in the west allow themselves to be manipulated by palestinians." hamas using manipulative tactics does not mean people are allowing themselves to be manipulated. not every dead civilian was a result of human shield-photographing tactics. there are plenty of israeli acts which have resulted in civilian deaths where the blame can squarely be placed on israel. further, there are plenty of israeli acts against palestine in general which a reasonable person may find condemnable.

i don't think the majority of people hold israel to a higher standard because of its religion, but because of its status as a civilized nation.

I'm not sure you understand what a conspiracy is.  A politician trying to shift public opinion one way or another isn't really a conspiracy.  For isntance I don't think a the President trying to get himself re-elected is a "conspiracy".  You are taking a very selective view of the poll I posted ignoring countries like France where there 37% of the public hold antisemitic views.  27% in Germany, 45% in Poland, 69% in Greece, 29% in Spain.  I would say those are significant numbers.  Oddly enough, Iran has a lower rate then Greece!

Okay, you and some other people hold Israel to a higher standard because they are more civilized.  If an "uncivilized" Arab commits a crime like murder, rape, or robbery should he be judged more leniently then if a Jew had committed the same crime?

[mongers]

Finally, Americans are beginning to bomb the right guys. 


In the long run, I look forward to seeing B1-lancers and B-2s leveling the government centres in Riyadh. 

[LaCroix]

I'm not sure you understand what a conspiracy is.  A politician trying to shift public opinion one way or another isn't really a conspiracy.  For isntance I don't think a the President trying to get himself re-elected is a "conspiracy".  You are taking a very selective view of the poll I posted ignoring countries like France where there 37% of the public hold antisemitic views.  27% in Germany, 45% in Poland, 69% in Greece, 29% in Spain.  I would say those are significant numbers.  Oddly enough, Iran has a lower rate then Greece!

Okay, you and some other people hold Israel to a higher standard because they are more civilized.  If an "uncivilized" Arab commits a crime like murder, rape, or robbery should he be judged more leniently then if a Jew had committed the same crime?

raz, correct me if i'm wrong, but you're saying governments wish to do business with muslims and have therefore tried to convince its people to not support israel. this is an allegation that the government plots to convince people israel is bad so the government can push its business agenda.

your election example is not a good analogy. the parties try to convince people to elect their candidate - private and non-private organizations. a better analogy would be the united states convincing its people sadam hussein is dangerous to push its agenda of invading iraq. this occurred, and it's not a conspiratorial to argue this.

your contention, however, alleges multiple governments across the world wish to do business with muslims and are actively trying to convince its people israel is bad. a government does not necessarily need its population to dislike a country for the government to choose to conduct business with the country's rivals. the government can simply choose to conduct business with the country's rivals.

i don't even know how a government convinces people to dislike israel. with the sadam hussein analogy, the US relied on false intelligence stating there were WMDs in iraq, and the news outlets were on a wave of patriotism post-9/11. first, there's no indication all these world governments are relying on false intelligence. while i'm sure you can find some instances where false inntelligence was relied on, the grander picture of the anti-israel argument uses the same information as the pro-israel argument. people just focus on different aspects. second, there's no indication the news outlets are gobbling up comments by politicians as the reason for their anti-israel reportage

i wasn't taking a selective view of your poll. the link you provided did not contain france, germany, poland, or spain.

poland and greece are eastern europe, one of the few regions where i do believe anti-semitism plays a major role. france has the highest number of muslims/people of arab descent in western europe. so, of the highest "anti-semitic" (according to your poll) western european countries, germany, france, and spain are the highest at around 25-30%. mainly negati.ve sentiment toward israel in those three countries: 77% germany, 66% france, 74% spain. as i pointed out, britain with its 8% is also 65% (around the same as britain). doesn't add up.

my argument has never been anti-semitism isn't a factor, but that anti-semitism isn't a major factor for the global negative opinion toward israel. simply too many people dislike israel for racism to be the cause.

to answer your question - no, he should not be. i've never said he should be treated more leniently. but, when two people are slinging shit at one another, people are gonna judge the person in a suit rather than the guy in tattered rags.

[CountDeMoney]

my argument has never been anti-semitism isn't a factor, but that anti-semitism isn't a major factor for the global negative opinion toward israel. simply too many people dislike israel for racism to be the cause.

Yeah, a lot of European antisemitic sentiment goes that route.  Same kind of rationalization from Confederetards that say the Civil War wasn't about slavery, either.  Lulz STATES RIGHTS

[LaCroix]

Yeah, a lot of European antisemitic sentiment goes that route.  Same kind of rationalization from Confederetards that say the Civil War wasn't about slavery, either.  Lulz STATES RIGHTS

that's less about racism and more about believing the arguments used at the time to secede. the societal elite owned slaves and typically were pro-secession, but the state rights was a way to convince the non-slave owners that their interests were violated as well.

[mongers]

Video of US strike on IS positions.

http://www.reuters.com/video/2014/08/08/us-confirms-bombing-islamic-state-milita?videoId=337779138&videoChannel=1&channelName=Top+News


What worries me is that these IS fighters have the confidence to approach/march on Erbil.

[derspiess]

Is that where gerbils come from?

[mongers]

Is that where gerbils come from?

Is it coincidence that these desert dwelling inspired barbarians should be marching on one of the most 'civilised' places on earth?

Civilized in the sense that people have lived there continuously for what 25-30 times longer than the USA has been in existence or for thousands of earlier than Stonehenge.


edit:

Googling, produces some rather neat pictures of the old city:

[Tonitrus]

Hopefully the Kurds would at least be able to hold that citadel.

[CountDeMoney]

Yeah, a lot of European antisemitic sentiment goes that route.  Same kind of rationalization from Confederetards that say the Civil War wasn't about slavery, either.  Lulz STATES RIGHTS

that's less about racism and more about believing the arguments used at the time to secede. the societal elite owned slaves and typically were pro-secession, but the state rights was a way to convince the non-slave owners that their interests were violated as well.

Still doesn't change the fact that Europeans hate Jews.

[mongers]

Yeah, a lot of European antisemitic sentiment goes that route.  Same kind of rationalization from Confederetards that say the Civil War wasn't about slavery, either.  Lulz STATES RIGHTS

that's less about racism and more about believing the arguments used at the time to secede. the societal elite owned slaves and typically were pro-secession, but the state rights was a way to convince the non-slave owners that their interests were violated as well.

Still doesn't change the fact that Europeans hate Jews.

You should go the whole hog.

[crazy canuck]

edit:

Googling, produces some rather neat pictures of the old city:

Very cool Mongers

[mongers]

edit:

Googling, produces some rather neat pictures of the old city:

....

Very cool Mongers

Yeah, it's quite something that it's city built upon a city, upon the rubble of yet another city and so on.  At least that's my understanding of what makes up most of these tells.

[Razgovory]

raz, correct me if i'm wrong, but you're saying governments wish to do business with muslims and have therefore tried to convince its people to not support israel. this is an allegation that the government plots to convince people israel is bad so the government can push its business agenda.

your election example is not a good analogy. the parties try to convince people to elect their candidate - private and non-private organizations. a better analogy would be the united states convincing its people sadam hussein is dangerous to push its agenda of invading iraq. this occurred, and it's not a conspiratorial to argue this.

your contention, however, alleges multiple governments across the world wish to do business with muslims and are actively trying to convince its people israel is bad. a government does not necessarily need its population to dislike a country for the government to choose to conduct business with the country's rivals. the government can simply choose to conduct business with the country's rivals.

i don't even know how a government convinces people to dislike israel. with the sadam hussein analogy, the US relied on false intelligence stating there were WMDs in iraq, and the news outlets were on a wave of patriotism post-9/11. first, there's no indication all these world governments are relying on false intelligence. while i'm sure you can find some instances where false inntelligence was relied on, the grander picture of the anti-israel argument uses the same information as the pro-israel argument. people just focus on different aspects. second, there's no indication the news outlets are gobbling up comments by politicians as the reason for their anti-israel reportage

i wasn't taking a selective view of your poll. the link you provided did not contain france, germany, poland, or spain.

poland and greece are eastern europe, one of the few regions where i do believe anti-semitism plays a major role. france has the highest number of muslims/people of arab descent in western europe. so, of the highest "anti-semitic" (according to your poll) western european countries, germany, france, and spain are the highest at around 25-30%. mainly negati.ve sentiment toward israel in those three countries: 77% germany, 66% france, 74% spain. as i pointed out, britain with its 8% is also 65% (around the same as britain). doesn't add up.

my argument has never been anti-semitism isn't a factor, but that anti-semitism isn't a major factor for the global negative opinion toward israel. simply too many people dislike israel for racism to be the cause.

to answer your question - no, he should not be. i've never said he should be treated more leniently. but, when two people are slinging shit at one another, people are gonna judge the person in a suit rather than the guy in tattered rags.

My guess is that you should have read the link I provided a little more thoroughly.  If 37% of the people in a country are antisemitic and 66% are anti-Israel, I'd say that 37% is a major factor. 
The leaders of countries try to sway public opinion on things all the time.  My contention is that many countries around the world see strategic advantage in taking a certain position and work to justify this to their people.  I'm not sure why this is such a strange thing to you.  This sort of thing happens all the time.  I brought up a purely domestic situation where the leadership of a country wants to convince the public of something.  You didn't care much for it, (I guess it made to much sense), and went on Saddam Hussein.  If you would like another example of the phenomena, I point to the EU.  Here we have several countries, aligning themselves in a common market.  This took quite a bit of doing since many of these countries at been at war with each other fairly recently.  The leadership of these countries worked to convinced their respective public the benefit of these treaties.  When new treaties need to be created the respective countries try to convince the public to vote for them.

I honestly don't care if people will judge a man in a suit and a man in rags differently, they are equal under the law.

[celedhring]

I'd dare say that European governments' position on Israel is far more temperate than their public opinions'.