The Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant Megathread

[Legbiter]

US airstrikes have started.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28709530

[CountDeMoney]

Hope this time they come up with a decent name, like Operation Whitesnake or something.

[Eddie Teach]

Hope this time they come up with a decent name, like Operation Whitesnake or something.

Here we go again?

[grumbler]

Hope this time they come up with a decent name, like Operation Whitesnake or something.

Here we go again?

That's a terrible name for an op.

[Eddie Teach]

I agree, it should be Operation Metallica or Operation Guns N Roses.

[Legbiter]

Hope this time they come up with a decent name, like Operation Whitesnake or something.

Here we go again?

That's a terrible name for an op.

Only song I can name from Whitesnake's lineup. 

[Viking]

Hope this time they come up with a decent name, like Operation Whitesnake or something.

Here we go again?

Here I go again on my own.



Going down the only road I've ever known



Like a drifter I was born to walk alone



I've made up my mind



I ain't wastin' no more time



So here I go again!

edit: that last image was actually Iraqi Army

[PDH]

Knowing this administration it would be "Operation Winger"

[CountDeMoney]

See? It just sings.

[CountDeMoney]

Knowing this administration it would be "Operation Winger"

[LaCroix]

I reject this completely.  They are human beings and should be judged the same as any other human beings.  I allow some leeway for different cultures, but this isn't about wearing an orange hat in public or a religious obligation to eat goat once a month, or not insulting them in the street.  The Palestinians aren't some ignorant child-peoples.  They can in fact read.  Their literacy rate is around 95%.  Israel already acts with more restraint then Hamas.  Hamas throws everything they have at Israel.  If Israel made the same effort they could depopulate Gaza in a few months.  Why do people dislike Israel?  True it's not all anti-semitism (but that's a major factor), other factors include European states wanting to get on the good side of about a billion Muslims rather then 10 million Israelis.  Another is that many in the West allow themselves to be manipulated by the Palestinians.  The Palestinians send kids with rocks to attack tanks and take pictures of the results.  They cynically put weapon caches near schools so that if when these are hit it kills children.  They know this tugs at the heart strings of Westerns.  They portray themselves as plucky innocents standing up against Israel and a lot of people buy it.

people will never equally judge, and in a lot of cases they shouldn't.

do you have evidence supporting your contention anti-semitism is a "major factor" for why the majority of the world dislikes israel's actions? the world opinion of israel, iran, and north korea is roughly the same. there are vocal pockets of anti-semitism, yes, but that does not make anti-semitism a "major factor."

whether or not some governments wish to "get on the good side" of the muslim world for economic reasons has little to do with the opinions of the world population. government actions do not equal public opinion. you're thinking like a russian on this argument

"many in the west allow themselves to be manipulated by the palestinians." -- replace "palestinians" with "israelis." do you feel manipulated by israel? of course not. you're smarter than that. i wouldn't be so quick to assume of all the nations in the world, only america has staved off palestinian manipulation. i think the vast majority of people fully realize palestine is not perfect.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I don't think there's a logical explanation for Western opinion on Israel. In the non-Western world, basically anywhere outside the OECD, anti-semitism is in fact extremely rampant much the same as it was 100 years ago in the West. Stuff like Borat isn't far off the mark on how ignorant much of the world is on its views of Jews.

In the Western world I think it's the same peacenik nonsense that fills everyone's heads, in the minds of the anti-Israeli camp, Israel is a "have" country, rich, "Western", democratic. Palestine is a weak country, so they view it as an evil colonialism/imperialism West vs developing world thing and they're just going with the developing world as intrinsically morally superior.

We do know that Israel is viewed quite differently than many other countries because I can point to many regions far larger than any segment of Palestine that the Israelis "stole" in which a power either took the land through outright deliberate conquest (Crimea, Northern Cyprus) or annexed it after winning a defensive war (much of legitimate imperial Germany after 1914 and some after 1945, which has faced none of the reaction that Israel gets for the land it's taken in wars it has won. Yes, one difference is the people that lost to Israel never wanted to stop fighting, but that's oddly seen as Israel's fault while that same logic is never applied elsewhere.

[Razgovory]

Alright, here's some polls on anti-semitism.  http://www.adl.org/press-center/press-releases/anti-semitism-international/adl-global-100-poll.html  As you can see it it's a major factor.

Many governments would rather piss off a few Israelis then a billion Muslims.  Since that is the case, the leadership of those countries try to lead their people toward that point of view.  Nothing conspiratorial about it.

I never said that People in the US weren't manipulated.  I wouldn't even say I wasn't manipulated, but I would consider putting children at high risk of death and then photographing their mangled bodies to demonstrate the brutality of their enemies cynical manipulation.

Now I'm aware that many people do not judge people equally.  The polls on antisemitism show that well enough.  I don't care.  I'm not going to hold someone to a higher or lower standard because of their race or religion.  I believe in impartiality before the law.

[LaCroix]

Alright, here's some polls on anti-semitism.  http://www.adl.org/press-center/press-releases/anti-semitism-international/adl-global-100-poll.html  As you can see it it's a major factor.

Many governments would rather piss off a few Israelis then a billion Muslims.  Since that is the case, the leadership of those countries try to lead their people toward that point of view.  Nothing conspiratorial about it.

I never said that People in the US weren't manipulated.  I wouldn't even say I wasn't manipulated, but I would consider putting children at high risk of death and then photographing their mangled bodies to demonstrate the brutality of their enemies cynical manipulation.

Now I'm aware that many people do not judge people equally.  The polls on antisemitism show that well enough.  I don't care.  I'm not going to hold someone to a higher or lower standard because of their race or religion.  I believe in impartiality before the law.

i checked your link. a few things.

first, it labels people as anti-semitic (i.e., hatred/prejudice against jews, etc.) for those who answer "probably true" to 6 of 11 questions. the questions range from "do you think jews are more loyal to israel than your country?" and "do you think jews have too much power in business?" this is an imperfect way to measure hostility toward israel's actions based off actual anti-semitism. for example, from what i've heard of japan, i wouldn't be surprised if a sizable percentage of japanese would be considered "anti-semitic" by this poll, even though japanese beliefs toward several of these questions does not translate into a hatred for jews, but respect for jews. obviously not every country is like this. however, it shows the flawed nature of attributing anti-semitism to people who answer "probably true" for those types of questions, and then arguing this poll's labeled "anti-semitic" people dislike israel because they are anti-semitic.

second, countries like UK, the philippines, etc. the scandinavian nations, have very low percentage of "anti-semitism" according to your link, but the majority in those countries have mainly negative opinions of israel. UK, for example - 8% "anti-semitic" by your poll, but 65% mainly negative opinion (and only 17% mainly positive) of israel. http://www.globescan.com/news_archives/bbccntryview/backgrounder.html

if you think the governments are "trying to lead their people [to dislike israel,]" then that's conspiratorial.

yes, using human shields and then photographing the consequences is PR-style manipulation. but, your initial argument was "many in the west allow themselves to be manipulated by palestinians." hamas using manipulative tactics does not mean people are allowing themselves to be manipulated. not every dead civilian was a result of human shield-photographing tactics. there are plenty of israeli acts which have resulted in civilian deaths where the blame can squarely be placed on israel. further, there are plenty of israeli acts against palestine in general which a reasonable person may find condemnable.

i don't think the majority of people hold israel to a higher standard because of its religion, but because of its status as a civilized nation.

[LaCroix]

(Crimea)

world opinion has condemned russia's actions, though.

stuff like imperial germany seizing land in the 1870s isn't fair, because it was the 1870s.